Advice please.

[dimreepr]

The problem:

I'm moving to a caravan at the end of the 260m garden.

I have a desktop, running windows 10 and not wifi capable.

The house wifi can't reach the bottom of the garden.

Can anyone suggest the most cost effective way to connect with the house internet connection, with the minimum effect on bandwidth.

 

[mistermack]

You don't say how your connection comes to the house. Is it down the phone line? If it is you can run a phone line down the garden, and have phone and router in the caravan. 

You can make the desktop wifi enabled with a usb dongle, costs just a few quid on ebay, but I'm not sure they would pick up from 260m away. 

 

[studiot]

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

The problem:

I'm moving to a caravan at the end of the 260m garden.

I have a desktop, running windows 10 and not wifi capable.

The house wifi can't reach the bottom of the garden.

Can anyone suggest the most cost effective way to connect with the house internet connection, with the minimum effect on bandwidth.

 

Studiot used to do this alot for Exmoor residents (farms etc).

Yes, you could run a telephone line down there but you would require external grade cable.

So I have two possibilities to offer.

Somewhere in the boxes of kit I still have one pair of narrow beam transmitter/receivers unopened in the boxes.
The have a range of slightly over 1km. and were made especially for this sort of application.
You are welcome to these for the cost of postage or collection if you ever visit Somerset.
I had a quick butchers in the store but couldn't locate them yet. I do know they are there somewhere.
Please note these are 'line of sight' only so if your cabin is hidden they won't work.

 

Alternatively you must be running power down there, unless you have a generator.
I had a good deal of success with 'through the mains' transmitters with a distributor device at the receiving end.
Unfotunately these were always in short supply, so they seemed to go out as fast as I could get hold of them, so I have none left.

 

[Sensei]

2 hours ago, dimreepr said:

The problem:

I'm moving to a caravan at the end of the 260m garden.

I have a desktop, running windows 10 and not wifi capable.

The house wifi can't reach the bottom of the garden.

Is your goal to network your garden with your house (and have free intranet transmission) ? Or to have any internet in the garden regardless of whether it is from the house or not?

 

A regular router can be configured for extended range mode, and put in the middle with some energy source. If one is not enough, a couple of them..

https://www.google.com/search?q=extended+range+modem+router

(pay attention to whether router has built-in antenna (cheap router) or on screw -> external antenna (>50 USD) can significantly extend range of the router)

(expensive routers can have multiple antennas/screws)

 

You can buy a second LTE/5G SIM card for your phone.. (old phone connected by USB with desktop PC computer delivering Internet)

It can also be plugged to a LTE/5G modem, which will be connected via USB to a computer and/or router.

2 hours ago, dimreepr said:

I have a desktop, running windows 10 and not wifi capable.

WiFi USB cards are cheap. 5-10 USD.

3G/4G/5G modem USB cards are for 35-60 USD.

There are also PCI modems for desktops.

2 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Can anyone suggest the most cost effective way to connect with the house internet connection, with the minimum effect on bandwidth.

Mutually exclusive expectations..

Too little data.

Depends on your home WiFi speed. If you have less than 480 Mbps, modem with LTE SIM card plugged directly to PC might be the fastest option, as long as mobile operator will deliver enough..

 

I have problems with 15m range due to obstacles in the apartment.. and you want 260m - no mention of obstacles..

 

55 minutes ago, studiot said:

Somewhere in the boxes of kit I still have one pair of narrow beam transmitter/receivers unopened in the boxes.
The have a range of slightly over 1km. and were made especially for this sort of application.

With what bandwidth?

Counted in kbps? Mbps?

 

 

Edited February 6, 2023 by Sensei

[dimreepr]

45 minutes ago, Sensei said:

Is your goal to network your garden with your house (and have free intranet transmission) ?

My goal is, a good enough internet connection, in my caravan; I suspect the answer is hardwired...

[Sensei]

4 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

My goal is, a good enough internet connection, in my caravan; I suspect the answer is hardwired...

305m RJ45 ethernet cable cost here 173 GBP

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/ethernet-cable/0557470

 

[dimreepr]

8 minutes ago, Sensei said:

305m RJ45 ethernet cable cost here 173 GBP

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/ethernet-cable/0557470

 

Thanks, but I was hoping for a lower price... 🙏

[Sensei]

35 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Thanks, but I was hoping for a lower price... 🙏

20 years ago, I used to buy an RJ45 cable for £0.2 per meter and that was the regular price at a time.. It's doubtful that it has dropped..

173 GBP/305m is 0.57 GBP per meter.

You know what electronics and computer shops you have in UK. Check them.

 

The cheapest option, which does not require a large investment if you have any old smartphone, is to buy a 2nd SIM card for it and enable tethering via USB.

Edited February 6, 2023 by Sensei

[studiot]

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

Thanks, but I was hoping for a lower price... 🙏

You can get 300+ metres of Cat5E or Cat 6 cable for under £50.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/263661406588?hash=item3d6371c97c:g:0u8AAOSwRbtaTVBD&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoAyWySM%2FH%2FeJk0nCK%2BYKHCrzQSPzciD07Og%2BI1zAWi3myz34NXWws5w29bnKSktx2YrRVgC%2BTOg88WNqY9ytcbxNDM73mW3g4AgnVJb%2F%2BT2mKCoA7FOurT9bCGm4JZi6b8Br84eHsg6Vb%2F8gS%2F1AyztYSYVA3i1UPtWTWfNwf%2BVkDkfQeYtFo7gic754NSibCRZljifYeNfhHGoYOEigywY%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR-LOz_jEYQ

 

But ethernet cable is only meant for 100m.max.

Beyond this you would need an intermediate signal booster amp  eg a router or switch as  the cheapest option.

 

 

[dimreepr]

Thanks for the advice guy's +1's all round.

[MigL]

Why 'move' the signal 260 m when you can move the caravan closer to the house ?

[dimreepr]

26 minutes ago, MigL said:

Why 'move' the signal 260 m when you can move the caravan closer to the house ?

What cat, what box???

[Sensei]

On 2/6/2023 at 5:28 PM, studiot said:

Beyond this you would need an intermediate signal booster amp  eg a router or switch as  the cheapest option.

..which still needs an external power source i.e. a wire or powerbank, a solar powerbank, or a solar panel alone..

 

 

On 2/6/2023 at 5:28 PM, studiot said:

You can get 300+ metres of Cat5E or Cat 6 cable for under £50.

That's a great price £43 for 305m Cat5E (which is still Gigabit), and £64 for 305m Cat6 with higher frequency.

 

Edited February 7, 2023 by Sensei

[studiot]

Thanks, yes good value today as things have gone up, I expect I paid less than that but I only had a quick look around.

The thing is that cable is outdoor grade as well.

5 hours ago, dimreepr said:

What cat, what box???

 

Cat5E is the original very fast ethernet standard.  Cat6 is even better, but harder to work with.

Cat = category.

Can you put plugs on the cable ends yourself or get someone to do this ?

Pre-terminated  (plugs on) cables are available up to 350 metres, but they are expensive.

Dim, You didn't answer my question about power, is your light going out   ?

2 hours ago, Sensei said:

On 2/6/2023 at 4:28 PM, studiot said:

Beyond this you would need an intermediate signal booster amp  eg a router or switch as  the cheapest option.

..which still needs an external power source i.e. a wire or powerbank, a solar powerbank, or a solar panel alone..

 

Not necessarily. There are spare pairs in the cable that can carry power from either or both ends.

I wired up quite a few distribution networks in large buildings (hotels) like this.

 

The term for this is cable powered router.

 

 

[Ghideon]

24 minutes ago, studiot said:

The term for this is cable powered router.

Good idea. PoE (Power over Ethernet) may also be applicable; one PoE & LAN signal repeater somewhere between house and caravan

 

30 minutes ago, studiot said:

Can you put plugs on the cable ends yourself or get someone to do this ?

Personally I prefer a wall jack and a patch cable between wall & equipment.

[studiot]

PoE, thanks. +1

But there are wiring considerations so Dim if you are thinking of this please ask for more details.

You do not wnat to try to connect PoE equipment to non PoE equipment since you are diverting some of the wires in the cable from signal to power.

Wall jacks are good, (and easier to wire up than plugs), but the danger is that someone will try to conneect something with an ethernet socket to it someday eg a TV or expensive radio or just a common or garden PC. Most devices are use the non powered standard and will suffer if connect to a DC voltage.

Edited February 7, 2023 by studiot

[Sensei]

https://www.google.com/search?q=which+router+have+poe

"Do any routers have PoE?

Most routers will not support PoE. PoE is fairly rare in consumer-level products and not even a given on more expensive stuff, so I would always expect it to be called out explicitly. If you don't see it, it doesn't have it."

 

Edited February 8, 2023 by Sensei

[studiot]

Firstly you don't actually need a router you need a switch  most folks cant tell the difference, but switches are cheaper and better for your purposes.

I assume you already have a router in your house internet ?

 

So if you have a spare ethernet connector in the back of your incoming internet then you would connect a PoE switch to it and take the output of the switch 100m to a repeater

This would then boost the signal for the next 100m and finally end up in another switch at the cabin.

A second switch there is a good idea as it would allow for future expansion.

The used to do 2 port switches but the main makes seem only have 5 port these days  - I will keep looking

There is PoE and PoE + which gives greater electrical power.

Quote

https://www.broadbandbuyer.com/store/poe-switches/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI4-jyudiF_QIVFODtCh3XuAHeEAAYAyAAEgKKQPD_BwE

Difference between PoE and PoE+

PoE is the 802.3af standard, and PoE+ is the 802.3at standard. The main difference between the 802.3af (PoE) and 802.3at (PoE+) standards is the maximum amount of power they provide over the data/network cabling. The maximum amount of power for the 802.3af (PoE) standard is 15.4 watts per port. The maximum for the 802.3at (PoE+) standard is 30 watts per port. Both are capable of supplying power up to a maximum 100m distance over a CAT5e/CAT6 cable.

Another way to reach 300+m is to use fibre.

This and PoE repeaters (extenders) are discussed here

 

https://intellinetsolutions.com/pages/poe-extenders-repeaters

[studiot]

This extender will just plug straight into your existing router.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/173919330648?hash=item287e666158:g:6p0AAOSwrEJc8STP&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoAcaFsJHFMaFuitGRQAHOJ4U9srulyV2VDbOi%2FNHjp7CclMFWGSH5pG%2B9VmvpMzliSrs74XKUaiSpYlu3nC8CFVb%2Fb9IcHhhArl%2FV9P2ldI9NsE79psc0INwQhLtTXeIAznksBep5%2FoYv4Wq4UAmG%2B8a2BUb5Sy8tJwJnqCXDKJK0P8R0h432MNiJy1QjzrqZ9vxG%2BSLscWWrfKuFWYLNpw%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR7jBoo_GYQ

Edited February 8, 2023 by studiot

[dimreepr]

On 2/7/2023 at 9:42 PM, studiot said:

Dim, You didn't answer my question about power, is your light going out   ?

Sorry, but I don't think that will be an issue, because I've worked out a rout that's less (just) than 100mtrs. Do you think a switch is advisable at the terminus, or can I just plug in? 

On 2/8/2023 at 12:28 PM, studiot said:

This extender will just plug straight into your existing router.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/173919330648?hash=item287e666158:g:6p0AAOSwrEJc8STP&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoAcaFsJHFMaFuitGRQAHOJ4U9srulyV2VDbOi%2FNHjp7CclMFWGSH5pG%2B9VmvpMzliSrs74XKUaiSpYlu3nC8CFVb%2Fb9IcHhhArl%2FV9P2ldI9NsE79psc0INwQhLtTXeIAznksBep5%2FoYv4Wq4UAmG%2B8a2BUb5Sy8tJwJnqCXDKJK0P8R0h432MNiJy1QjzrqZ9vxG%2BSLscWWrfKuFWYLNpw%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR7jBoo_GYQ

Or this?

[iNow]

Lots of good info above. Would only add one other hard earned lesson: It’s generally better to spend slightly more upfront and do the job right the first time… make the install ready for what will surely be a higher demand on the system in the future… than to cheap out and need to repeat the work again later a second or third time for twice or triple the price. Buy once, cry once. Good luck!

(also a hard wired connection nearly always beats a wireless one, the strength of which falls off with distance and weather conditions etc) 

[studiot]

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

Sorry, but I don't think that will be an issue, because I've worked out a rout that's less (just) than 100mtrs. Do you think a switch is advisable at the terminus, or can I just plug in? 

Glad you are thinking and weighing the issues before acting.

A small switch is advisable in my opinion for the reasons, iNow and i have already mentioned.

You might want to put your feet up sometimes and watch streaming media.

Or you might want to watch a secuitry/bird/whatever cam

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

Or this?

if you put a plug on the end of your 100m cable and the signal is not strong enough it is pluggable s can be addd later.

There are lots of 100m cables ready assembled available. My reel was for 300+ metres.

 

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

Sorry, but I don't think that will be an issue

Perhaps, but I did ask if you are using a genny or stable power cable from the house.

Powering even your PC from a genny can lead to more difficulties than just loosing power  - it can actually damage the PC, more so than other equipment because of the hard drive.

For a genny I would recommend some sort of UPS (uninterruptible power supply).

 

Finally much if not all of this kit can be had even more cheaply second hand.

As regards ethernet, originally it started at 1Mbit then moved up to 10 then 100 then 1000 (gigabit).

Most existing networks are of the 100 variety which is satisfactory for HD video and faster than Wifi (though not 2 Wifi channels together)

So if you go the s/h route get 100Mbit kit.

 

[StringJunky]

What about those devices that transfer signal through the mains; plug to plug?

[studiot]

3 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

What about those devices that transfer signal through the mains; plug to plug?

I offered those earlier, but we don't know if Dim is wired for mains.

Also it may not be as easy as that as through the mains has to be on the same mains subcircuit.

I used to keep a bunch of these and say to farmers, the only way to see if it works in your barn, cowshed etc is to try it and see.

If I plug these in and they work, it is the easiest and cheapest way, otherwise we can do something else. But you don't have to buy them, just use my test modules.

Someimes it would would sweetly, sometimes it would stubbornly refues to jump from one subcircuit to another.

[mistermack]

This is probably not what Dim wanted, but just for added info : 

My internet on my desktop comes in through my mobile phone. I gave up the wired phone and internet about 20 months ago because this is much cheaper. I have a contract with Smarty on the sim, 50gig for a month data, (which I don't get near ) for £10 a month. You can pay a bit more and get unlimited data from various suppliers, but this is fine for me.   All I have to do to connect is go to settings/network and wireless/internet hotspot and click enable, and you get a wireless network enabled that you can connect to with a USB wireless network dongle. So I'm paying £10 instead of about £25 with line rental previously. 

The only drawback is the connection speed. If you need a lot, it's not for you. But I can honestly say that I've only noticed things going slow about two or three times in a year. A lot depends on how good the mobile signal is in your area, and whether you get 5g coverage, which I don't. 5g would be a lot faster, but you'd need a 5g phone or portable modem. Mine are 4g. 

If you have several people using the network, doing a lot of down and uploading, then it would be poor. For me, it's fine.

The other bonus is that you can use it anywhere that you get a signal. So you can take it out with you, and connect a laptop or pad. ( I absolutely hate using a phone for the internet, my eyes ain't good enough )

Edited February 9, 2023 by mistermack