7055 Posted February 15, 2023 Share Posted February 15, 2023 (edited) Hello, I am just learning about political science an having trouble understanding these two concepts. On the surface its super straightforward. They are committees for the purpose of raising money for political candidates. One has spending limits and the other doesn't. But I have to admit, this makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. The first confusing thing is that there exists two different ones, if a Super PAC has less strict rules than a PAC, why does a PAC even need to exist at all? The other thing that doesn't make any sense to me is that the PAC has something like a $5,000 limit on how much money it can spend on a candidate. So let me get this straight, if Bob is running for president and I want to start a PAC to support him, I can only give him $5,000? What is that going to accomplish given that the average presidential candidate has to spend over one billion dollars to win? What even makes a PAC any different then a political candidate just asking people for money directly? The whole idea of PACs is just rife with confusion to me. Can anybody clarify? Edited February 15, 2023 by 7055 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharonY Posted February 15, 2023 Share Posted February 15, 2023 There was a bit with Stephen Colbert and Jon Stewart where they made fun of Super PACs how insane the 2010 Supreme Court decision was. But basically a Super Pac can spend whatever they want, with the only restriction (from what I understand) that they are not allowed to coordinate with the candidate directly. Colbert and Stewart specifically highlighted that by mock non-coordinating while having a Super PAC. I am not sure whether that is the only or even the most important difference, but it seemed to me the most ridiculous one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterkin Posted February 16, 2023 Share Posted February 16, 2023 2 hours ago, 7055 said: The whole idea of PACs is just rife with confusion to me. Can anybody clarify? It's meant to be. A PAC is a political action committee - that is, a group of people entrusted with collecting and allocating moneys for a campaign, a candidate or a party. Simple enough, but of course, they couldn't leave it alone. Financial manipulators can never keep things simple. https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/political-action-committee-super-pac.asp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7055 Posted February 16, 2023 Author Share Posted February 16, 2023 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Peterkin said: It's meant to be. A PAC is a political action committee - that is, a group of people entrusted with collecting and allocating moneys for a campaign, a candidate or a party. Simple enough, but of course, they couldn't leave it alone. Financial manipulators can never keep things simple. https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/political-action-committee-super-pac.asp That definition says it pools campaign donations from members... PACs have members? Are they like special interest groups in that way? Can someone please answer these questions? 1) Even back before the Citizens United supreme court decision, what was the point of a PAC? If you can only raise $5,000 for a candidate that seems so small that its pointless. 2) Can someone not just give a candidate money directly? Does it have to go through a PAC? 3) Now with the introduction of Super PACs, is there even any point to having normal PACs? 4) Lets say I was running for president before the advent of Super PACs and I needed one billion dollars for my campaign. Does that mean I need two hundred thousand PACs to reach that number? Edited February 16, 2023 by 7055 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterkin Posted February 16, 2023 Share Posted February 16, 2023 18 minutes ago, 7055 said: Can someone please answer these questions? I was pretty sure that article did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted February 16, 2023 Share Posted February 16, 2023 20 minutes ago, 7055 said: Can someone not just give a candidate money directly? Does it have to go through a PAC? Yes, you can contribute directly to a campaign. But that’s limited to $2900 per election cycle for federal office (the amount can be adjusted each election cycle; originally it was $2000 in the 2002 legislation that “reformed” the system) https://www.fec.gov/updates/fec-announces-2021-2022-campaign-cycle-contribution-limits/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7055 Posted February 16, 2023 Author Share Posted February 16, 2023 7 minutes ago, Peterkin said: I was pretty sure that article did. Perhaps you have a different and more knowledgeable background than I and what makes sense to you needs to be spelled out for me. That article did not answer the questions for me 6 minutes ago, swansont said: Yes, you can contribute directly to a campaign. But that’s limited to $2900 per election cycle for federal office (the amount can be adjusted each election cycle; originally it was $2000 in the 2002 legislation that “reformed” the system) https://www.fec.gov/updates/fec-announces-2021-2022-campaign-cycle-contribution-limits/ That seems so odd, there must be something I'm missing. So you can donate $2,900 to a candidate without a PAC, or you can set up a PAC and only be able to donate $2,100 more than that for a total of $5,000? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted February 16, 2023 Share Posted February 16, 2023 28 minutes ago, 7055 said: That seems so odd, there must be something I'm missing. So you can donate $2,900 to a candidate without a PAC, or you can set up a PAC and only be able to donate $2,100 more than that for a total of $5,000? PAC donations are separate; they don’t go to the candidate’s campaign. And above I incorrectly said election cycle, but the limits are per election - the limit applies separately to the primary and general elections Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted February 16, 2023 Share Posted February 16, 2023 3 hours ago, 7055 said: why does a PAC even need to exist at all? Why, indeed Why is our governance reliant at all on who the best fundraiser is as opposed to who has smart plans to achieve the maximum good? Why are the people ruled by laws about fund raising the same ones writing those laws? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted February 16, 2023 Share Posted February 16, 2023 4 minutes ago, iNow said: Why, indeed Why is our governance reliant at all on who the best fundraiser is as opposed to who has smart plans to achieve the maximum good? Also: Why would people who think money is speech come up with convoluted ways to donate more money to the people they support? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted February 16, 2023 Share Posted February 16, 2023 I guess some speech is more equal than others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7055 Posted February 16, 2023 Author Share Posted February 16, 2023 1 hour ago, swansont said: PAC donations are separate; they don’t go to the candidate’s campaign. And above I incorrectly said election cycle, but the limits are per election - the limit applies separately to the primary and general elections I thought PAC donations could go to a candidates campaign? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted February 16, 2023 Share Posted February 16, 2023 5 minutes ago, 7055 said: I thought PAC donations could go to a candidates campaign? They can, but then they become subject to the limits https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/money-politics-101-what-you-need-know-about-campaign-finance-after Quote different rules apply to non-party, outside groups called political action committees, known as PACs. If a PAC contributes directly to candidates, the most a person can donate to the PAC is $5,000.[6] Significantly, if a PAC declares that it will spend its money totally independently from a candidate’s campaign, then there are no limits on donations to the PAC. These groups, which can receive unlimited contributions from individuals, corporations, or unions, are commonly called “Super PACs.” Finally, some non-profit groups, called “social welfare” organizations, or “501(c)(4) groups,” can also accept unlimited contributions from individuals, corporations, and unions. The primary purpose of these groups cannot technically be political, but they can spend substantial amounts on political activities, such as TV commercials.[7] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7055 Posted February 16, 2023 Author Share Posted February 16, 2023 24 minutes ago, iNow said: They can, but then they become subject to the limits https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/money-politics-101-what-you-need-know-about-campaign-finance-after I understand that but I was talking about PACs that aren't super PACs. Back before Super PACs came to be, what was the point of PACs? They can only give out $5,000 to a candidate campaign and you can give close to that by just contributing directly so why the need for the PAC? There must be something I'm missing here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted February 16, 2023 Share Posted February 16, 2023 3 minutes ago, 7055 said: I understand that but I was talking about PACs that aren't super PACs. So was I, but it’s a distinction without a difference anyway. 4 minutes ago, 7055 said: There must be something I'm missing here. Correct, such as the spending that helps campaigns but isn’t directly allocated to their official funds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7055 Posted February 16, 2023 Author Share Posted February 16, 2023 19 hours ago, iNow said: So was I, but it’s a distinction without a difference anyway. Correct, such as the spending that helps campaigns but isn’t directly allocated to their official funds So do you mean to say that through some loophole, normal PACs have always acted like Super Pacs? Can you explain further? What is the spending that helps campaigns but isn't allocated to their official funds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 4 hours ago, 7055 said: So do you mean to say that through some loophole, normal PACs have always acted like Super Pacs? Can you explain further? No x2 4 hours ago, 7055 said: What is the spending that helps campaigns but isn't allocated to their official funds? Other than ad buys and fees for events or equipment rentals or fair grounds…. or digital media and sponsorships of content and paying people to knock on doors or get signatures or… what exactly are they teaching you in political science class if you don’t already know this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
npts2020 Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 The main purpose of PAC's is that you can give money to a candidate then give money to a PAC that will give it to "a" (wink, wink) candidate. Saddest part is that both Republicans and Democrats have been in control of all the branches of government since "Citizens United" but neither party seems much interested in changing this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7055 Posted February 17, 2023 Author Share Posted February 17, 2023 1 hour ago, iNow said: No x2 Other than ad buys and fees for events or equipment rentals or fair grounds…. or digital media and sponsorships of content and paying people to knock on doors or get signatures or… what exactly are they teaching you in political science class if you don’t already know this? lol, I am not and never have been in political science class my friend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 15 hours ago, 7055 said: lol, I am not and never have been in political science class my friend My mistake. Read this wrong. On 2/15/2023 at 3:58 PM, 7055 said: I am just learning about political science Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7055 Posted February 25, 2023 Author Share Posted February 25, 2023 (edited) On 2/17/2023 at 2:20 PM, iNow said: My mistake. Read this wrong. That's okay, I can see how you got that impression. I do not have much knowledge or any background in politics, I am only just learning On 2/16/2023 at 10:01 PM, npts2020 said: The main purpose of PAC's is that you can give money to a candidate then give money to a PAC that will give it to "a" (wink, wink) candidate. Saddest part is that both Republicans and Democrats have been in control of all the branches of government since "Citizens United" but neither party seems much interested in changing this. I think you're referring to a leadership PAC which is something I don't fully understand because if a politician did start a leadership PAC to support another politicians campaign for office, he can only give him $5,000, no? So it seems kind of fruitless Edited February 25, 2023 by 7055 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted February 25, 2023 Share Posted February 25, 2023 It’s best just to assume that people can give as much as they want to any politician anywhere. They just need to funnel it correctly and jump through a few easy hoops to do it. The rest of it is just distractions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
npts2020 Posted February 25, 2023 Share Posted February 25, 2023 (edited) 5 hours ago, 7055 said: I think you're referring to a leadership PAC which is something I don't fully understand because if a politician did start a leadership PAC to support another politicians campaign for office, he can only give him $5,000, no? So it seems kind of fruitless A leadership PAC is just another PAC but is usually connected to a party or elected (or wannabe) official.. In general, it seems like non connected committees (the majority of PACs) is what is being referred to in this discussion. These PACs may only give $5000 to any given candidate and receive a like amount from each donor in a given year. SuperPACs may receive unlimited amounts of money and spend as much as they want. The difference is SuperPACs are not allowed to give directly to candidates or coordinate advertising with them. If you still have questions, I highly recommend the FECwebsite https://www.fec.gov/help-candidates-and-committees/registering-pac/understanding-nonconnected-pacs/ . There are lots of links to define terms being used and comparisons made. It is a shame more people aren't interested in understanding how their political process works. Edited February 25, 2023 by npts2020 mistake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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