Jumping to Conclusions

[StringJunky]

14 minutes ago, sethoflagos said:

Wise words. But what if you don't understand how the listener may interpret the style? Bear in mind that within a group focussed on the sciences, there is the possibility of interacting with some ASD spectrum affected indivividuals who really have a difficulty in comprehending the POV of others. 

If such a person frequented the professional scientific sphere, I'm afraid it is incumbent on them to adapt or avoid. Just as I don't expect to becomea  sound engineer, being deaf. Obviously, in this forum environment we can adapt to accomodate their issues. 

Edited February 17, 2023 by StringJunky

[sethoflagos]

8 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

If such a person frequented the professional scientific sphere, I'm afraid it is incumbent on them to adapt or avoid. Just as I don't expect to becomea  sound engineer, being deaf. Obviously, in this forum environment we can adapt to accomodate their issues. 

I didn't know. One of my uncles was deaf from birth (rubella). He was very kind to me, taught me loads about river and lake fishing and so on. It's always grieved me that I was never able to return his kindness in full simply because I had no fluency in sign language and could only thank him with a smile.

It may well be that it is 'incumbent' on those with disabilities to adapt to the world around them, but does the world around them have no duty to adapt to their disabilities? I hope not. Perhaps that is why I feel no urge to return to the UK under the present regime. From where I am, it simply appears inhumane.

[iNow]

Self-identity and social acceptance play big meaty roles here. Challenges to either can knock the wind right out of us at times, especially when delivered crisply by someone admired on a topic on which we define ourselves as expert. 

So many great posts here already it’s challenging to add, but so much of this is about perspective. What does our brain space look like at the time? What’s our “neural baseline” state when the new stimulus perturbed it? How wobbly were our brains and bellies (same thing?) when the information arrived and a narrative constructed around it? What other demands on our minds were burdening us when the interaction happened? How familiar or novel was the event? How loud was the ambient, how cold was the room, how full were our stomachs…

All of that context matters, and so does the topic / topic area. I love science, studied science, and think scientifically, but I play more here in Politics so in that regard I tend prioritize throwing hard bruising rhetorical punches over protecting other people’s feelings. It makes me a polarizing figure, and while I’d prefer being accepted, I have no plans to change who I am to allow for that. That’s not the outcome I prioritize in those exchanges.

I am comfortable with who I am and accept myself. I didn’t always and it’s some days are harder than others, but my only goal is to be better today than I was yesterday, and better tomorrow than I am today. If I can influence the world/cosmos in some way to also be somehow better today and tomorrow than yesterday, well then it’s hard to hope for much else. 

[sethoflagos]

3 hours ago, iNow said:

All of that context matters, and so does the topic / topic area. I love science, studied science, and think scientifically, but I play more here in Politics so in that regard I tend prioritize throwing hard bruising rhetorical punches over protecting other people’s feelings.

Which made you the first person I ever put on my Ignored Users List. And that's despite being largely sympathetic to your political position. I don't question your behaviour particularly, but it does make me wonder what you're trying to achieve. 

 

Edited February 17, 2023 by sethoflagos

[TheVat]

5 hours ago, sethoflagos said:

Wise words. But what if you don't understand how the listener may interpret the style? Bear in mind that within a group focussed on the sciences, there is the possibility of interacting with some ASD spectrum affected indivividuals who really have a difficulty in comprehending the POV of others. 

Can't add much to this fine thread, but will say that I've noticed science forums often seem to provide a space where those with an ASD can interact pretty well.  Though my training was in biology/medicine, then information science, my later work was more social work and counseling and sometimes brought me into contact with ASD persons and some of the obstacles they deal with.  SFN has a fair number of regulars who are used to communicating with non-native speakers and getting over the language bumps, sans condescension, and I think that skill also maps onto clearing misunderstandings with ASD persons.  (And then there are people like Markus, who leave me wondering if the D in ASD really belongs there, i.e. maybe we should just view it as a different cognitive style, and quite an effective one at that. )

[swansont]

I recall someone at a science communication conference describing geeks as people who value knowledge more than politeness. That we (I am a geek) don’t mind being corrected because it means we have added to our knowledge. There are some with flipped priorities - they consider being corrected to be rude, with no regard to the veracity of the original claim. Correction just isn’t done, or requires a lot of tact.

Scientists and those interested in science discussion, tend to be more in the geek camp than not. There’s no malice assumed when incorrect information is upgraded with better information.

For the non-geek, there may also be a matter of projection. One might assume malice if one is prone to being malicious in showing up other people. There are, after all, people who are smart and like nothing more than lording that over other people. I think they tend to belittle others in doing so. A difference between “that’s wrong” and “that’s wrong, you know-nothing imbecile” (aka pushing yourself up by putting others down). I was fortunate in my career in working with lots of smart people who understood there were things they didn’t know, so they didn’t fall into this camp. Most were comfortable in their geekdom.

 

[iNow]

57 minutes ago, sethoflagos said:

Which made you the first person I ever put on my Ignored Users List. And that's despite being largely sympathetic to your political position. I don't question your behaviour particularly, but it does make me wonder what you're trying to achieve. 

There you go again… troubling yourself with what’s happening inside the minds of others. Mind ya business! 😂 

35 minutes ago, TheVat said:

science forums often seem to provide a space where those with an ASD can interact pretty well. 

This resonates with me 

33 minutes ago, swansont said:

That we (I am a geek) don’t mind being corrected because it means we have added to our knowledge

As does this 

[mistermack]

 

[NTuft]

15 hours ago, sethoflagos said:

Some of you familiar with my posting style probably realise that my understanding of psychology is close to zero. Perhaps you can help raise it a notch or two.

I'm sure all of us at some point or other have read a post that exposed our ignorance. @Mordred and @Markus Hanke for example frequently leave me feeling exposed as an idiot without seeming to pause for breath. But I do exit that thread a little less of an idiot.

So why do a number of us seem to automatically assume that such exposure of our ignorance was intentional and malicious?  No names no pack drill. Just curious.

I wonder if it matters if it's intentional or malicious. A stoic line would be that one can only control their responses, or that one can stifle any unreasonable emotional reaction, if there is self-mastery. Nonetheless, if something "gets your goat" I think it helps you see yourself--why or how am I identified with this point of contention that leads to negative emotion or reaction?
I agree with a line of argument that says the truth hurts. That dis-confirming information is interpreted by the brain as physical injury. I don't know how scientifically founded that is, but I do think there are studies on cognitive biases in political opinion where people presented with information dis-confirmatory to their belief have pain centers light up. I also think the issue of whether you're thinking with your adipose or your blood is at play.
I'm not so sure we can really control what impressions we make on others. Being able to be externally considerate always and internally considerate never is an equation for happiness. Being able to control the impressions we make on others would be quite a skill...
But is there a need for it? Perhaps stepping on people's corns can create a friction, create some difficulty to make a change that wouldn't be possible another way. It only make sense and is reasonable I think to be respectful here, I think we'd hope we understand each other and are working on things together. Yet if you think it's necessary to correct with dis-confirming information, it's going to bring the pain, and oftentimes I think it's done with a flair or presentation that might be taken personally, or as an insult, when in reality it's done in good humor (at least for the rest of the readers). 

[Markus Hanke]

5 hours ago, TheVat said:

And then there are people like Markus, who leave me wondering if the D in ASD really belongs there, i.e. maybe we should just view it as a different cognitive style, and quite an effective one at that.

I am autistic indeed, and in the very fortunate position that my own personal autistic profile is such that for me the advantages of being on the spectrum far outweigh the challenges (which exist, but may not be obvious here). Unfortunately this is not true for many other - perhaps even the majority of - autistic people, a large proportion of whom suffer significantly from their autistic traits and common comorbidities, and above all from the failure of the wider neurotypical world to understand, respect, accept and accommodate these traits. Ultimately whether or not the “D” belongs in there is very much a matter of personal circumstance and experience - for me personally, I do not consider my autism to be a “disorder” in any way, and wouldn’t choose to change it even if given the opportunity; however, other autistic people may think about their own situation very differently, and this absolutely needs to be respected too. Everything considered, I am not a very “typical” representative of the autistic community.

And for those of you who aren’t aware - English is also not my native language; my real-world vocation has nothing to do with science; and I am not university-educated. The foundations of physics are simply a matter of personal interest to me, so it’s all self-taught. And rest assured that if I’m among real experts on these subjects matters (e.g. among some of the regulars over on PhysicsForums), I’m also left feeling ignorant and dumb  Which is why I’m mostly just a silent reader there. But for me this is rarely a negative experience, since I consider ignorance to be an opportunity to acquire new understanding, which is never a bad thing.

PS. To give perhaps a better insight into the subject matter of this thread - when I respond to posts, my entire focus is always 100% on understanding better how the world works. That means when I see a statement that doesn’t gel very well with the current scientific consensus on the matter at hand, I’ll simply say so - social considerations never come into it for me at all. I don’t set out to intentionally hurt or belittle people, but neither do I go out of my way to mollycoddle others’ feelings (unless they are obviously vulnerable in some way). The social aspect just simply isn’t on my radar at all. A verbal or mathematical statement is either a good description of some aspect of the world, or it isn’t - that’s all there is to it for me. This is also how I roll in the real world - I am very focused on concepts, insights, and values, and have little to no interest in social or cultural conventions. That get’s me in trouble sometimes, since most other people appear to be reifying socio-cultural conventions into some sort of universal truths or standards. I’m just not everyone’s cup of tea I guess  

[sethoflagos]

28 minutes ago, NTuft said:

I wonder if it matters if it's intentional or malicious. A stoic line would be that one can only control their responses, or that one can stifle any unreasonable emotional reaction, if there is self-mastery. Nonetheless, if something "gets your goat" I think it helps you see yourself--why or how am I identified with this point of contention that leads to negative emotion or reaction?
I agree with a line of argument that says the truth hurts. That dis-confirming information is interpreted by the brain as physical injury. I don't know how scientifically founded that is, but I do think there are studies on cognitive biases in political opinion where people presented with information dis-confirmatory to their belief have pain centers light up. I also think the issue of whether you're thinking with your adipose or your blood is at play.
I'm not so sure we can really control what impressions we make on others. Being able to be externally considerate always and internally considerate never is an equation for happiness. Being able to control the impressions we make on others would be quite a skill...
But is there a need for it? Perhaps stepping on people's corns can create a friction, create some difficulty to make a change that wouldn't be possible another way. It only make sense and is reasonable I think to be respectful here, I think we'd hope we understand each other and are working on things together. Yet if you think it's necessary to correct with dis-confirming information, it's going to bring the pain, and oftentimes I think it's done with a flair or presentation that might be taken personally, or as an insult, when in reality it's done in good humor (at least for the rest of the readers). 

This is a thoughtful and well-written post. Thank you.

Does the truth hurt? Only if you allow it to maybe.

 

[Arete]

I have ASD, but also work hard on communication and social skills, so have managed OK in life. Understanding intention and emotion through nonverbal ques and innuendo is always a challenge, and I do tend to take people at the literal interpretation of their word when it's often not the actual intention. On this forum, the regular users also tend to be very literal in their communication style and I tend to do well. 
 

I also managed to develop a scientific communication style that polarizes - people either love or hate my classes and my publications. I tend to put a lot of effort into the precision of my language and interpret others through that lens, so often I am at odds unintentionally (ok, sometimes intentionally) with people who are more expressive and figurative in their communication style. 

[Markus Hanke]

2 hours ago, Arete said:

Understanding intention and emotion through nonverbal ques and innuendo is always a challenge

Same here…welcome to my world  

[StringJunky]

Yes, playing mind games is not done much here. We generally strive for clarity, I think, and we don't need that crap.