'Fess Up, You're An Extremist

[Pangloss]

Hehe!

 

But in fact don't you have exactly the same amount of incontrovertible, uninterprable evidence of plant suffering and value-holding as you do about the same in animals?

 

Put another way, not all animals express themselves in familiar ways, nor do we know for a fact that animal expressions represent the same internal thoughts and emotions that we use those expressions to represent in ourselves. So why assume that plants lack such feelings, just because they cannot visually express them?

 

All that aside, doesn't moral vegetarianism, in the final analysis, come down to a matter of faith?

[In My Memory]

Hehe!

 

But in fact don't you have exactly the same amount of incontrovertible' date=' uninterprable evidence of [i']plant[/i] suffering and value-holding as you do about the same in animals?

I'm having deja vu:

The animal rights one is always a conversation starter [snip']... people ask really strange questions about it, like "do you think plants suffer" or "how do we know that animals can really feel pain" - never once have I heard seriously anyone ask these questions outside of the context of animal rights or veganism

Have you ever wondered about plant suffering during the times when you arent talking to an animal-rights activist

 

All that aside, doesn't moral vegetarianism, in the final analysis, come down to a matter of faith[/i']?

You've read my posts, it would be truly out of character for me to argue that veganism is a matter of faith rather than actual good reasons (it would be something interesting to see me write "there are absolutely no reasons why you should be a vegan, but do it anyway" ). Most of my reasons for veganism were inspired by Oxford professor of Bioethics Peter Singer and his books on the animal rights including "Animal Liberation" and "Practical Ethics".

 

If you start another thread on vegetarianism / veganism, I'll be happy to be the representative vegan and answer your questions in more detail.

 

(I've edited my post so as not to derail this thread.)

[Pangloss]

No, you're right, I'm not concerned about plant rights or feelings. What I am is curious about hypocrisy, and why otherwise intelligent people sometimes fall prey to it (and why I fall prey to it myself). It's your position, you're entitled to it and I support your freedom of choice completely.

 

But did you notice something? You brought it up as an example of personal extremism, remember? In other words, it's a position that you have which you feel goes beyond the normal bounds of reason. Otherwise you wouldn't have mentioned it, right? But as soon as I questioned you on it, you went right down a normal, even predictable route: a defensive response, even to the point of linking a clearly partisan source.

 

I'm not trying to pick on you, I'm just pointing out that "fessing up" is easier said than done! Had the shoe been on the other foot, for example had you challenged me on my position on extremist moderacy, I'm sure I would have reacted in exactly the same way.

 

Doesn't all this just more or less make your original point? Clearly we all have extremist positions that we have trouble admitting to.

 

Another example might be the way Thomas Kirby was so adamant about science over religion, but asked us to take it on faith whenever he spoke of the problems of child abuse and sexual predator laws, refusing to support his points and calling it "common sense". He was, in effect, becoming the thing he hated most -- someone who insisted that others accept his opinion at face value, as a matter of faith. I found that to be fascinating -- hypocrisy that blatant is seriously rare. But in the end it was just the same thing we all do. Are we just incapable of recognizing such flaws in ourselves?

 

This thread -- just the fact that we're talking about it -- would suggest otherwise. But I'm not sure we can really do anything about it in a substantive way. I think we can joke about it, or talk about it on an impersonal basis, but as soon as we feel that personal pressure, the judgement of others creeping in, up go the walls. And they're VERY difficult to actually deal with.

 

As I say, an interesting thread. My compliments.

[In My Memory]

Pangloss,

 

But did you notice something? You brought it up as an example of personal extremism, remember? In other words, it's a position that you have which you feel goes beyond[/i'] the normal bounds of reason. Otherwise you wouldn't have mentioned it, right? But as soon as I questioned you on it, you went right down a normal, even predictable route: a defensive response, even to the point of linking a clearly partisan source.

Oh, dear you misunderstand! I never meant to imply that my veganism example of extremism was faith-based or not rationally defensible, I mentioned it because I know its really "out there" and probably goes outside of the acceptable mainstreams, and I'm personally very sensitive to it being trivialized (or being called faith - thats like nails on a chalkboard to me ). The veganism itself is reasonable, but its my major hotbutton issue for me and one prone to make me very upset in the wrong company.

 

Extremism means many things, which includes positions that go beyond normal bounds of reason, but also includes ideas:

- being literally uncompromising. You might know these people as brickwalls, who despite the facts could not imagine that they would possibly be wrong. Think of all the Sean Hannitys and Ann Coulters in the world for example.

- being desperately removed from the mainstream. Enter anyone you've ever seen in those huge PETA demonstrations.

- that once challenged, reasonable discourse becomes impossible. For instance, I know members of Anti-defemation League who are very good writers and compose absolutely beautiful essays on the rhetorical implications of anti-semitism in media, but they would go insane calling people "scum" and "monsters" at the first joke that goes "Two Rabbis walk into a bar, then they bought it".

 

I'd also be tempted to lump in anyone who has a persecution complex about their political opinions, possibly ideas defended on conspiracy theories, and maybe ideas that are never defended any further than meaningless platitudes and soundbytes.

 

As I say, an interesting thread. My compliments.

Much appreciated

[john5746]

Is a view only considered extremist by comparing it to the average view of a society or culture? Or is it extremist if it is expressed in absolutes?

 

1) Most illegal drugs should be legalized

 

2) Prostitution should be legalized

 

3) Homosexual marriage should be legal

[ElijahJones]

I'm extremely attracted to women. This is both good and bad since I'm married.

 

I'm extremely weary of dealing with people who refuse to become educated. And I don't mean get a graduate degree. I mean like being able to make a logical argument that contains at least one sentence.

 

Oh here is a good one, I have considered purchasing an island and living on it as a way to avoid the human throng. I'm not sure if that makes me an extremist, but it might.

 

 

IMHO there are some forms of extremism that are far too rare!

[YT2095]

YT' date='

 

 

You know, I dont think you actually have to hold beliefs that are out of the mainstream to really be an extremist. I think in some since, even for reasonable ideas, if you cannot speak [i']rationally[/i] about it then that makes you an extremist.

 

For instance, I know people who cannot speak rationally about pedophiles or child abuse - it becomes emotionally overwhelming for them, and they become violent or irrational when trying to talk about the topic. Its not necessarily a bad thing, but if you cant speak rationally about something, that makes you an extremist.

 

Perhaps, YT, there is a hotbutton issue that exists for you that makes you incapable of speaking rationally about?

 

well I guess I`m what Might be termed as "Extremely" protective when it comes to those I care about, coupled with being "Extremely" Stuborn (Typical Taurus), that Can lead problems at times. but I don`t consider it Extreme, Others might. I just do what it takes to get the job done, and don`t quit until it is.

the Stuborness is probably my most extreme aspect, I`ve gone days on end without sleep or rest working on a project in the past, it`s a sort of "head down, get stuck in, and don`t come out the other end until it`s finished" menatlity. it has its Good sides though!

as for Hot Buttons, we all have those, but letting others know what they Are.... well just that`s creating a weakness IMO, and never a good idea to do

[john5746]

And if you try to say that you dont hold some kind of weird view or support something that may be just out of the mainstream of your party' date=' or even worse try to pass yourself off as an "independent", you will be forced to wear a dunce hat for the rest of the day :[/quote']

 

I don't consider myself a member of any party. I am a moderate liberal socially, but a moderate conservative fiscally. But, I do have views that wouldn't be considered "moderate:

 

 

As a humanitarian' date=' I do not under any circumstances buy things made in countries like China, Portugal, Taiwan, Korea, or Japan because they have a miserable record of human rights abuses. And I will not accept gifts from those places. I just cant bring myself to support directly or indirectly places that work frequently underage employees in miserable conditions for low pay. This is one of the major reasons I will not shop at Walmarts or similar places, and instead choose to buy everything from local providers.[/quote']

 

Unless you are Amish, you are using Asian products. And what about the human rights violations in the Middle East (Oil?). Japan? Taiwan? What is wrong with them? You are probably consuming less overall, so from that standpoint, great, but it is very difficult or impossible to single out one country and boycott it. Also, are your sure a boycott helps the working class?

 

Also, this thread seems to assume extremist views are bad, but in the past, it has lead to the greatest changes in society. Some good, some bad

[AL]

Unless you are Amish' date=' you are using Asian products. And what about the human rights violations in the Middle East (Oil?). Japan? Taiwan? What is wrong with them? You are probably consuming less overall, so from that standpoint, great, but it is very difficult or impossible to single out one country and boycott it. Also, are your sure a boycott helps the working class?

 

Also, this thread seems to assume extremist views are bad, but in the past, it has lead to the greatest changes in society. Some good, some bad[/quote']

Moreover, many products are multinational. A computer built in America may consist of components built in Taiwan, so it is very difficult to single out these products, let alone countries.

 

Also, boycotting the products from an entire country to protest one particular instance of government misbehavior and/or inaction seems a little unreasonable to me. I don't buy Japanese seafood products because I object to the whaling activities of the Japanese fishing industry, but that's not going to stop me from buying a Toyota Prius automobile. It's a little dubious to say Toyota is partly responsible for the hauling in of dead cetaceans just because both parties have the loose affiliation of being "Japanese."

[In My Memory]

John,

 

Unless you are Amish, you are using Asian products. And what about the human rights violations in the Middle East (Oil?). Japan? Taiwan? What is wrong with them? You are probably consuming less overall, so from that standpoint, great, but it is very difficult or impossible to single out one country and boycott it. Also, are your sure a boycott helps the working class?

This is probably worth dedicating a thread to, but basically almost everything I buy comes from the local community and is made in the US. As long as I can avoid it, I take extreme care into making sure that what I buy doesnt inadvertantly go into child labor or sweat shops. I couldnt imagine willfully putting my money into corporations that do all but torture its employees.

 

And as far as helping out the working class, I'm fairly sure that all the money I spend from buying locally gets reinvested directly into my surrounding community. Almost all the money goes into the hands of my local providers rather than to faceless CEOs that I'll never see or meet. So, I imagine that I do more for the working class by shopping as I do now than buying all my things from Walmart.

 

There are literally thousands of websites dedicated to buying locally, see 10 Ways to Buy Local for a few resources (that one is on food and clothing, but I'm sure a little searching on the internet will show places to buy American-made electronics). If you're smart enough to pick a good organic food and clothing suppliers, then buying locally can be good for both your local communitys economy and environment.

 

Also, this thread seems to assume extremist views are bad

Not at all, have you seen the number of smilies in this thread

 

This thread is for show and tell without getting strange looks, getting to know our SFNers a little better, and even for a little poking fun at our selves. Its a fun thread, just enjoy

[john5746]

This is probably worth dedicating a thread to' date=' but basically almost everything I buy comes from the local community and is made in the US. As long as I can avoid it, I take extreme care into making sure that what I buy doesnt inadvertantly go into child labor or sweat shops. I couldnt imagine willfully putting my money into corporations that do all but torture its employees.[/quote']

 

Japan doesn't have child labor or sweat shops - any more than America

 

And as far as helping out the working class' date=' I'm fairly sure that all the money I spend from buying locally gets reinvested directly into my surrounding community. Almost all the money goes into the hands of my local providers rather than to faceless CEOs that I'll never see or meet. So, I imagine that I do more for the working class by shopping as I do now than buying all my things from Walmart.[/quote']

 

I meant the working class of the foreign countries. You implied your boycott is to remedy their working conditions. If you are trying to help your local community, then I agree, your actions are helpful toward them.

[BobbyJoeCool]

I'm an extremest because I believe that people who are always perkily happy (or seem that way anyway) have serious mental issues. jk.

 

IMM, you seem to be a lot like a good friend of mine. Her Grandmother is dying of Breast Cancer, and she doesn't care about the bad... she's focusing on the good side of things. She always as a positive attitude about thing, and you remind me a lot of her. Except she wouldn't be caught dead in a science/political debate (mainly because she'd lose badly cuz she doesn't know that much about them)...

 

I wish I could be that positive about things, or just be happy. But I can barely fake it anymore. Oh well.

 

Here's to people with positive attitudes (which would not be me). *Raises glass of Mt. Dew as a toast*

[Nevermore]

I'm an extremist democrat I guess. I don't like any of the recent republican presidents. And I've liked almost all democrat presedents.

[abeefaria]

I am probably an extreme conservative compared to most of you here.

 

homosexual marriage -- absolutely NOT

 

ban firearms -- you can have mine, I will give you the bullets first

 

socialize medicine -- are you on crack? medicine is not a right, it is a service

 

nuke the middle east -- that is an option

 

However, I am not a conservative (won't call myself a "liberal" if my life depended on it) on these issues:

 

legalizing drugs -- a hesitant yes, i personally would like to enjoy an opium smoke every now and then

 

religion does not belong in the science classroom

 

right to die for terminally ill patients -- hell yes

 

I can't remember the other topics, I am remembering (drinking to) my oldest cat today, I had to euthanize him today

[In My Memory]

John,

 

I meant the working class of the foreign countries. You implied your boycott is to remedy their working conditions.

I think you are putting words in mouth, or maybe reading things into posts that I never actually said. I never said I could remedy the working conditions of people in foreign nations, I only said that I've removed myself from participating in those economies.

 

But, since you asked, I should mention that nothing I could do can remedy negative working conditions - at least not directly. There two general ways I can help more or less indirectly:

 

1) At the very very least, boycotting certain countries could put pressure on businesses (or even governments) to meet certain human rights standards. It works according to this vastly oversimplified formula: increase working standards, increase the number of people willing to buy your goods, increase profits.

 

Before you get concerned that my actions will cause workers to be laid off or take reduced pay, keep in mind that the money that businesses gain in sweat shops are not proportioned or distributed evenly to laborers.

 

2) Or, like any good voter, I could extend my influence through my politicians - for instance, I could get a large number of people to sign a petition stating that if my politician does not pressure foreign businesses to meet acceptable human rights standards, that all of these people on the petition will vote him out of office.

 

Having said that, its out of my power to be able to directly help the working class people in foreign nations - ultimately changes come from within the countries themselves.

 

But, while I do find the topic of human rights in global economies to be incredibily interesting, I dont want to derail this thread. Perhaps the discussion could be taken to another thread if you want to continue?

[LucidDreamer]

I have some liberal extremist views from your list IMM. I like: Eliminate all guns off the face of the planet, socialize Medicine, and free public education for everyone. I'm also somewhat of a libertarian and don't want a massive overbearing federal government. So I would pay for the free medicine and public education by eliminating all the money we spend on "defense," if such a thing were actually possible and practical.

[zyncod]

Most of my reasons for veganism were inspired by Oxford professor of Bioethics Peter Singer and his books on the animal rights including "Animal Liberation" and "Practical Ethics".

 

Mmmm. I'm sure you agreed with his books, but that probably had very little to do with your veganism. I have yet to meet one vegan that believes that GMOs are a good thing or that Adam Smith was right about the "invisible hand." You really aren't an extremist, you're part of a very large peer group that operates in ideological lockstep, and the peer group probably is responsible for at least 90% of your beliefs. Not a bad thing (nobody's really an "individual"), but definitely vegans are no (longer) an extremist group. ALF is an extremist group, but that's another thing altogether.

 

Personally, I'm a vegetarian vivisectionist (literally). A lot of my friends (also of the vegan/vegetarian persuasion) are of the mentality that I'm somewhat of a murderer, but I see a difference between research animals that are treated as humanely as possible and whose deaths very much help humanity, and factory farm animals, whose deaths help somebody have a cheeseburger. Oh, and I'm also a neo-Marxist, so I'm guilty of being in lockstep to some extent as well.

[abeefaria]

WHO DOES ANYONE THINK THEY ARE BY TAKING AWAY A FIREARM FROM SOMEONE ELSE? Anyone wanting to take mine is SUSPECT!!!!!!!!!! It is folly to think that you can disarm everyone. Those like me will find a way to make our own firearms and ammo, the government be dammed. The bad guys will have firearms, so should the good guys.

 

 

Furthermore, America is the greatest nation not because of any of the following: marxism, socialism or communism. When I was young, I thought socialism was fine, but I now see the error of my ways. Read "Atlas Shrugged" for a great argument why selfishness is (can be) a virtue. I will be dammed if I invent something and the government takes it away from me without just compensation, which is what would happened should anyone live under a marxist/socialist or communist government. Liberalism is poison and you should break free of it, IMO.

 

Be John Galt, not James Taggert!!!!!

 

Be a man, not a panzy lawyer.

[YT2095]

AHA! I just thought of one!

 

it`s not necesarily "Extreme" but it`s a little odd, and I can get quite unreasonable about it.

 

1`st drink in the morning Has To BE, Fresh ground coffee! I`ll even take it with me on camping trips, and I get really quite unreasonable if for some reason I can`t have my coffee, Instant coffee I`ll flatly refuse or tea or anything, it MUST be real coffee, and yes, it`ll spoil my entire day if I don`t have that ONE little thing or Ritual or Me Time, when I enjoy that coffee and a cig.

Even grinding the beans 1`st thing in the morning is a pleasure, and the 1`st smell when ya open the top of the grinder, then while the coffee`s being made I do other stuff, like have a wash etc...

 

it gives me peace of mind

[j_p]

I turn into an absolute gibbering, frothing-at-the-mouth, wild-eyed, fang-baring maniac when people introduce beliefs and opinions into an argument, without stating them as such. [i swear I actually get larger.]

 

What really sets me off? Undeclared premises and non-legitimate inferences; I can get really mean about them.

 

Oh, and ignorance of history; for example, IMM, testing someone before allowing them to register to vote was a 'Jim Crow' tactic.

 

Also, my favorite joke is, 'I just have no use for intolerant people.'

 

Sigh, no-one gets it, because it is so true about me.

[In My Memory]

J_p,

 

Oh, and ignorance of history; for example, IMM, testing someone before allowing them to register to vote was a 'Jim Crow' tactic.

I'm not ignorant of history - in fact, when writing the post, I debated with myself whether I should explain the difference between bi-partisan competency tests and the Jim Crow laws, but I figured most people would understand where I'm coming from without explanation. But, since you mentioned it, I suppose it does deserve a bit of clarification:

 

Jim Crow tactics were bad for the actual negative and racist consequences they had on people, the way that they were oppressive and hurt people, and how they stripped good people of their first-class citizenship. But, of course, nothing I've said implies that I wanted to ressurrect Jim Crow laws. Instead, all I've said is that I find it completely reasonable that to test people on the basic knowledge of how government works on a bi-partisan basis, so that the only people excluded are the desperately uninformed voters without reference to race, sex, political party, etc, (for instance, asking how many senators each state has - 1, 2, 3, or proportioned by population; name the three branches of government; etc).

 

Its very very predictable for people to discredit the idea on the wrong assumptions - for instance, by misassociating competency tests with racist post-Civil War "literacy tests". Its the same kind reasoning that says "assisted suicide for terminally ill people is bad because the Nazi's used 'euthanasia programs' too" (I apologize in advance for invoking Godwin's law), or "affirmative action is bad because its just as racist as the KKK", or "separation of church/state is bad because look at all the oppressive secular regimes like Stalin, Soviet Russia, and communist China". I think this follows exactly from one of those things that sets you off in your own words, "Undeclared premises and non-legitimate inferences"

[john5746]

I think you would find that some minorities and the poor would be excluded from voting more so than the white middle class. So, the Sharptons of the world would complain racism and test bias, etc. Then, we would have to have affirmative action to make sure the % of certain groups were represented in the voting.

 

Nope, won't work. Besides, there aren't many choices - a monkey could vote as well as a genius. The more participation in voting, the less likely we get a kook representing a small faction.

[j_p]

J_p' date='

... I think this follows exactly from one of those things that sets you off in your own words, "[i']Undeclared premises and non-legitimate inferences[/i]"

 

Ouch.

 

I suppose I could argue that your inference that I assumed you ignorant is unwarranted, because in the context of a light-hearted thread ...

 

or I could just say, 'I'm sorry, that came out wrong; I did not mean to insult you.'

 

Here's another evidence of extremism on my part: I don't cede my right of way to someone driving an SUV, which is completely illogical because it results in them burning even more gas.

[Severian]

I am an anti-vegitarian. I don't think people should be forced to eat meat, but I think the dicrimination between eating different sort of living things is a very flawed anthopomorphism. Vegies project their own feelings onto the animal, somehow thinking that the animal would have the same feelings as themselves about being eaten. Does it make sense to only eat living things which don't have a central nervous system?

 

I am also anti evangelical atheists. I especially dislike anyone who tries to base their atheism on science - that really bugs me (but I think this bugs me more from the point of view of a scientist than from the point of view of a Christian).

[YT2095]

I am also anti evangelical atheists.

 

forgive my ignorance here, but what exactly Is that?

I`ve never heard that term before.