What's the major difference between cheap and expensive wine?

[StringJunky]

25 minutes ago, geordief said:

The truth is such a slippery  and faceted customer.

 

Even your crooked   psychopathic and fabulist ex pres knew to call his propaganda outfit "truth social".

You just know a site's going to be full of lies and generally excremental with 'Truth' in its name.

Edited March 20, 2023 by StringJunky

[exchemist]

4 hours ago, geordief said:

A few years now since I bought any ,but I don't recall it being difficult to get then

 

I know very little about choosing wine and was just following a recommendation  from another cook(I try  to keep things simple and repeatable)

I don't think I've ever drunk wine from 100% merlot. My wife was very French and had been brought up chiefly on Bx, mainly left bank, so usually blends: Cab Sauv/Merlot/Cab Fr/P Verdot. Right bank (St. Emilion, Pomerol) usually doesn't have Cab Sauv and for that reason is thought to  mature earlier.

Merlot ripens more easily I think and is less tannic, hence easier on some palates that find a lot of tannin too astringent.   

I have to confess the wines I really enjoy best these days are based on Nebbiolo: Barolo, Barbaresco, Langhe Nebbiolo, Valtellina, Gattinara etc. But I'm very slowly working my way through all the Bx. that was bought when my wife was alive and before I had a dicky ticker. Definitely a 1st world problem. 

Edited March 20, 2023 by exchemist

[geordief]

5 minutes ago, exchemist said:

I don't think I've ever drunk wine from 100% merlot. My wife was very French and had been brought up chiefly on Bx, mainly left bank, so usually blends: Cab Sauv/Merlot/Cab Fr/P Verdot. Right bank (St. Emilion, Pomerol) usually doesn't have Cab Sauv and for that reason is thought to  mature earlier.

Merlot ripens more easily I think and is less tannic, hence easier on some palates that find a lot of tannin too astringent.   

I have to confess the wines I really enjoy best these days are based on Nebbiolo: Barolo, Barbaresco, Langhe Nebbiolo, Valtellina, Gattinara etc. But I'm very slowly working my way through all the Bx. that was bought when my wife was alive and before I had a dicky ticker. Definitely a 1st world problem. 

I did a couple of seasons of the vendanges many  years ago .

Maybe that is when I heard it said that the best wines tended to be sold abroad.

Could that be why I found it easy to get Merlot wine over here or was it perhaps just a case of a lazy description?

I only really drink wine when someone stays and leaves a half  bottle behind and I cannot bring myself (or even conceive of) throwing it out.

 

My partner doesn't drink it at all and just holds the same glass until the end of the evening or until she can spirit it away.

[exchemist]

11 minutes ago, geordief said:

I did a couple of seasons of the vendanges many  years ago .

Maybe that is when I heard it said that the best wines tended to be sold abroad.

Could that be why I found it easy to get Merlot wine over here or was it perhaps just a case of a lazy description?

I only really drink wine when someone stays and leaves a half  bottle behind and I cannot bring myself (or even conceive of) throwing it out.

 

My partner doesn't drink it at all and just holds the same glass until the end of the evening or until she can spirit it away.

You got a wine based 100% on merlot from France? I wonder where that came from. 

But don't believe the best wine is sold abroad. That might be true of the most exclusive "trophy" wines that millionaires buy: that market is fully international of course. But for ordinary mortals, wine from much the same selection of producers is available in France and the UK. I normally stock up with a bit from the local Carrefours when we go to Brittany each summer. The rest I get chiefly from the Wine Soc., that pillar of the bourgeois professional classes in the UK. 😄  

 

[dimreepr]

19 hours ago, geordief said:

 

Are you on the sauce again?

No, I'm asking a genuine question.

Purely anecdotal evidence, but I've never met anyone who actually liked their first taste of alcohol, especially if they overindulged.

So the question of a nuanced difference in taste and how that relates to price, seems moot.

Elephants who love the sauce, aren't fussy about the source. 

[geordief]

10 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

No, I'm asking a genuine question.

Purely anecdotal evidence, but I've never met anyone who actually liked their first taste of alcohol, especially if they overindulged.

So the question of a nuanced difference in taste and how that relates to price, seems moot.

Elephants who love the sauce, aren't fussy about the source. 

Sure it enters into the equation.I tend to agree that value judgments are learned and relate to the  context.

But some of the context  can be an appreciation of the work involved in making a product and a respect for the lives lived  making and developing it.

Not everyone will share the final assessment but ,in @exchemist 'a example most did  ,presumably  because the product was close to what was aimed for  and passed enough criteria  for all or most  (in his opinion)  to agree that it had distinguishing features.

Distinguishing features often equates to an increase in monetary value and if people have spare cash it is not unreasonable to expect they will use it.

I have (my partner ,not I) 3 bottles of wine that have sat in a room in our house  for the past 40 years and are now  apparently worth around 1000 each  at auction.

I keep them flat and out of the light  and have no idea or real  interest  if they would taste good or not.

You can't taste them without ruining them unless you know what you are doing and so they just sit there as it is too much trouble to ferry them to an auction house in London.

 

We had a wine grower who stayed with us some 15 years ago and he told us that if you have a bottle of "good" wine that has spoiled  it is possible to recover the quality of the  wine by using it in cooking.

The lost flavour returns.No idea if it is true but he sounded like a professional.

[exchemist]

32 minutes ago, geordief said:

Sure it enters into the equation.I tend to agree that value judgments are learned and relate to the  context.

But some of the context  can be an appreciation of the work involved in making a product and a respect for the lives lived  making and developing it.

Not everyone will share the final assessment but ,in @exchemist 'a example most did  ,presumably  because the product was close to what was aimed for  and passed enough criteria  for all or most  (in his opinion)  to agree that it had distinguishing features.

Distinguishing features often equates to an increase in monetary value and if people have spare cash it is not unreasonable to expect they will use it.

I have (my partner ,not I) 3 bottles of wine that have sat in a room in our house  for the past 40 years and are now  apparently worth around 1000 each  at auction.

I keep them flat and out of the light  and have no idea or real  interest  if they would taste good or not.

You can't taste them without ruining them unless you know what you are doing and so they just sit there as it is too much trouble to ferry them to an auction house in London.

 

We had a wine grower who stayed with us some 15 years ago and he told us that if you have a bottle of "good" wine that has spoiled  it is possible to recover the quality of the  wine by using it in cooking.

The lost flavour returns.No idea if it is true but he sounded like a professional.

I've heard that one can use a corked wine for cooking, as the cooking allegedly gets rid of the cork taint, but this seems to be disputed.

[MigL]

5 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Purely anecdotal evidence, but I've never met anyone who actually liked their first taste of alcohol, especially if they overindulged.

First time I got drunk and threw up, I was 5 years old; on cherries preserved in alcohol.
Wine and beer ( and occasionally liquors ) was always available to me, if I so chose, and sometimes, as a child, breakfast consisted of sucking a raw egg out of its shell, followed by a 'shot' of Marsala ( a fortified wine ).
I felt no need to abuse drink, as it was available f I wanted it, and didn't go out and get 'stupid' when I reached drinking age.

I appreciate wines that I like ( not 'good' as that is subjective ), refreshing lagers  brewed in the German tradition ( no matter where thy're from ), not warm beers that you have to chew, and I like brandies/cognacs, but will partake of smooth sctches ( not peaty ), bourbons and good sipping tequilas, if the occasion arises.

Add that to your anecdotal evidence Dim.

Edited March 21, 2023 by MigL

[John Cuthber]

5 hours ago, exchemist said:

I've heard that one can use a corked wine for cooking, as the cooking allegedly gets rid of the cork taint, but this seems to be disputed.

I can't see a plausible mechanism for getting rid of the trichloroanisole.

It's important to remember that there are two sorts of drinks:
Those you wish to drink
Those that you do not wish to drink.

[geordief]

5 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

can't see a plausible mechanism for getting rid of the trichloroanisole.

Combined tastes probably don't "add up" so the taste of that chemical  may get altered  by the other flavours in the sauce or food.

 

I drink coffee with my hot milk in the morning and never notice how fresh the filtered coffee I use is.It can be up to 2 days old and I wouldn't notice the difference.

[exchemist]

28 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

I can't see a plausible mechanism for getting rid of the trichloroanisole.

It's important to remember that there are two sorts of drinks:
Those you wish to drink
Those that you do not wish to drink.

Yes I was a bit baffled by this idea. It may simply be that cooking masks a bit of cork taint. But if it's really bad then I imagine one has to tip it down the drain. 

[geordief]

18 minutes ago, exchemist said:

Yes I was a bit baffled by this idea. It may simply be that cooking masks a bit of cork taint. But if it's really bad then I imagine one has to tip it down the drain. 

There are some ingredients  that are fairly disgusting  but blend in ok like asa foetida (devil's dung) and fish sauce which they say can be used in meat dishes but I cannot bring myself to test.

When I got fed doing the grape harvests I noticed it was common practice to finish (or begin) the soup by adding  with a  bit of wine in the bowl.

[joigus]

The grape, the brand and the vintage give you an approximate idea of what to expect in terms of price range.

But I agree with @MigL: "Drink what you like"

By that I mean: It's often the case that the wine I like the most is not necessarily the most expensive one, once grape, vintage and the particular vineyard have been factored out of the equation.

You never know what goes in the price tag. There are, I suppose, as many factors as a particular producer can meet in trying to make each bottle profitable. If you can produce wine of a certain quality standard, but you only have one hectare with the right slope, sun exposure, blah, blah, maybe your pricetag will skyrocket for no apparent reason on the consumer's end.

Edited March 21, 2023 by joigus
minor modification

[MigL]

1 hour ago, joigus said:

But I agree with @MigL: "Drink what you like"

I drink red wine with fish.
Oh, the horror !

[Genady]

2 hours ago, geordief said:

asa foetida

Yep, I like to add a pinch of it here and there. I don't find it disgusting.

[joigus]

31 minutes ago, MigL said:

I drink red wine with fish.
Oh, the horror !

I do too! If I like the wine, and I like the fish, why would one ruin the other for me?

I do feel that certain wines seem to go particularly well with certain foods. A young red wine and sufficiently ripened cheese are a great combination. And and red wine aged in oak and red meat too. But there's no reason not to break the 'rules' if you happen to enjoy it.

[geordief]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

I drink red wine with fish.
Oh, the horror !

It has taken me  over 40 years to add garlic on top of onion.I am still working out if it is any good.

[John Cuthber]

13 hours ago, geordief said:

t has taken me  over 40 years to add garlic on top of onion.I am still working out if it is any good.

I don't know if it's good, but it's an unusual wine.

[geordief]

27 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

I don't know if it's good, but it's an unusual wine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpjaqswBVIA

Whatever

[dimreepr]

19 hours ago, MigL said:

First time I got drunk and threw up, I was 5 years old; on cherries preserved in alcohol.
Wine and beer ( and occasionally liquors ) was always available to me, if I so chose, and sometimes, as a child, breakfast consisted of sucking a raw egg out of its shell, followed by a 'shot' of Marsala ( a fortified wine ).
I felt no need to abuse drink, as it was available f I wanted it, and didn't go out and get 'stupid' when I reached drinking age.

I appreciate wines that I like ( not 'good' as that is subjective ), refreshing lagers  brewed in the German tradition ( no matter where thy're from ), not warm beers that you have to chew, and I like brandies/cognacs, but will partake of smooth sctches ( not peaty ), bourbons and good sipping tequilas, if the occasion arises.

Add that to your anecdotal evidence Dim.

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