Are UAPs/UFOs finally being taken seriously?

[swansont]

33 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

Distance and time are moot points when trying to figure out some reason why they can't be here. Technology can overcome both problems, machine/AI probes could cover the distance and then use technology to recreate their own creators. No reason why this wouldn't work, printing out EBEs along with all their technology... piece of cake! 

So robots, not alien life.

And yet we were just subjected to a thread where alien beings are allegedly sighted. You can’t have it both ways.

Quote

The military being so compulsively secrative that a method of "secrete writing" labeled top secrete during WW2 is still top secret even though the method is widly known

Citation?*

The US government classifies material for which “unauthorized disclosure could reasonably be expected to cause damage to the national security” (serious/exceptionally grave damage for secret/top secret. 

The thing is, the US only represents a small fraction of the world. Why so many sighting in the US? The US can’t classify info from other countries - why not get data from sources outside the US?

*edit

This says it was the CIA, and that the docs were declassified in 2011

https://www.cia.gov/stories/story/secret-writing-cias-oldest-classified-documents/

[StringJunky]

I read in Reuters yesterday a project is starting to zoom in a small patch of our galaxy to look for deliberate signals. Interestingly, it said we don't consciously send out signals as a beacon to other worlds because we don't know if their intentions are friendly or not.

[Moontanman]

2 hours ago, swansont said:

So robots, not alien life.

And yet we were just subjected to a thread where alien beings are allegedly sighted. You can’t have it both ways.

No living things printed out or even grown in artificial wombs. BTW I'm not a big fan of the whole EBEs visiting earth, drones and robots... maybe even biological robots are far more likely. 

2 hours ago, swansont said:

The thing is, the US only represents a small fraction of the world. Why so many sighting in the US? The US can’t classify info from other countries - why not get data from sources outside the US?

Plenty of UFO sightings occur outside the US, I am generally more likely to see reports in English, that being my only language, but we have discussed sightings from all over the world on this forum many times. I'm confused you would make that claim.   

*edit

This says it was the CIA, and that the docs were declassified in 2011

https://www.cia.gov/stories/story/secret-writing-cias-oldest-classified-documents/

 

26 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

I read in Reuters yesterday a project is starting to zoom in a small patch of our galaxy to look for deliberate signals. Interestingly, it said we don't consciously send out signals as a beacon to other worlds because we don't know if their intentions are friendly or not.

This is true and one of the oddest things, we can't really pick up "radio leakage" from the closest star, only a deliberate signal could be picked up as easily as is often reported and yet we don't send out intentional repeating signals but we expect aliens to do so. 

[swansont]

3 hours ago, Moontanman said:

This is true and one of the oddest things, we can't really pick up "radio leakage" from the closest star, only a deliberate signal could be picked up as easily as is often reported and yet we don't send out intentional repeating signals

A little math/physics might explain why (imagine that!). What signal strength is needed for detection, and what can be supplied? That will tell you how far away you can expect it to be effective.

The deep-space network that communicates with e.g. the Voyager craft have the power drop off by a factor of around 19 orders of magnitude. It’s a bit more than 10^9 km. The inverse-square law is brutal. It works because we know what signal we’re looking for, so it can be picked up among the noise.

That’s ~10 light-hours. A signal that goes light years (at least ~1000x the distance, so a million times more attenuation) would need a proportionally larger power to stand out.

You can boost reception with an larger area, but DSN starts with a pretty big dish.

3 hours ago, Moontanman said:

but we expect aliens to do so. 

Who is “we”?

 

3 hours ago, StringJunky said:

I read in Reuters yesterday a project is starting to zoom in a small patch of our galaxy to look for deliberate signals. Interestingly, it said we don't consciously send out signals as a beacon to other worlds because we don't know if their intentions are friendly or not.

Link? Who is doing this?

edit: looks like SETI is using data from the VLA, and not doing it as a dedicated search. The large aperture and number of dishes bumps this up to possible

https://www.seti.org/press-release/massive-radio-array-search-extraterrestrial-signals-other-civilizations

”COSMIC operates commensally, which means it works in the background using a copy of the data astronomers are taking for other scientific purposes,” said Paul Demorest, Scientist and Group Lead for VLA/VLBA Science Support at the National Radio Astronomy Observatory.  “This is an ideal and very efficient way to get large amounts of telescope time to search for rare signals.”

[StringJunky]

17 hours ago, swansont said:

A little math/physics might explain why (imagine that!). What signal strength is needed for detection, and what can be supplied? That will tell you how far away you can expect it to be effective.

The deep-space network that communicates with e.g. the Voyager craft have the power drop off by a factor of around 19 orders of magnitude. It’s a bit more than 10^9 km. The inverse-square law is brutal. It works because we know what signal we’re looking for, so it can be picked up among the noise.

That’s ~10 light-hours. A signal that goes light years (at least ~1000x the distance, so a million times more attenuation) would need a proportionally larger power to stand out.

You can boost reception with an larger area, but DSN starts with a pretty big dish.

Who is “we”?

 

Link? Who is doing this?

edit: looks like SETI is using data from the VLA, and not doing it as a dedicated search. The large aperture and number of dishes bumps this up to possible

https://www.seti.org/press-release/massive-radio-array-search-extraterrestrial-signals-other-civilizations

”COSMIC operates commensally, which means it works in the background using a copy of the data astronomers are taking for other scientific purposes,” said Paul Demorest, Scientist and Group Lead for VLA/VLBA Science Support at the National Radio Astronomy Observatory.  “This is an ideal and very efficient way to get large amounts of telescope time to search for rare signals.”

https://www.reuters.com/science/scientists-expand-search-signs-intelligent-alien-life-2023-05-31/

[swansont]

7 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

https://www.reuters.com/science/scientists-expand-search-signs-intelligent-alien-life-2023-05-31/

Radiated power of ~2 x 10^18 watts, mentioned in the abstract of the paper, is probably why we aren’t doing it, and why it’s detectable.

[Alex_Krycek]

On 6/11/2023 at 10:16 PM, Bufofrog said:

the whole idea of the governments of the world hiding the truth seems silly to me.

Not to me.  

If a certain technology could provide a nation with unassailable militaristic dominance over all foreign adversaries, then 100% that technology would be classified at the highest levels of secrecy within the MIC.

 

On 6/12/2023 at 8:21 PM, TheVat said:

Interesting idea.  Since nomadic societies tend not to develop high technology, because they travel light and expend a lot of their time/energy on making camp and living off the land as they pass through, it seems likely that an interstellar nomadic society would have come from a non-nomadic civilization on a planet -- which then adopted a nomadic mode as they moved into space.  (or some segment adopted that mode, leaving behind others who prefer a more settled life)  The nomads search the galaxy, looking for the perfect martini.

Planet Earth definitely seems like the ideal destination to drink that martini (if you can avoid the locals).

 

8 hours ago, StringJunky said:

https://www.reuters.com/science/scientists-expand-search-signs-intelligent-alien-life-2023-05-31/

Interesting.

Edited June 14, 2023 by Alex_Krycek

[TheVat]

Interesting committee testimony yesterday in US Congress:

 

Grusch told the House oversight subcommittee on national security that the American government has spent decades secretly recovering mysterious vehicles that have crashed on the ground, and has determined the material to be of “non-human” origin. The government also attempted to reverse engineer some of the technology, according to Grusch. And it’s doing all of this clandestinely, without proper supervision by Congress.

In the hearing, Grusch expanded on his previous claims in response to lawmakers’ questions. If elected officials had never heard about this effort before, how did it get any funding? The military pilfered money that had been allocated for its other programs. A defense official recently testified before Congress that the U.S. military hasn’t found any evidence of extraterrestrial activity on Earth; is that statement correct? It’s not accurate. Has any of the activity been aggressive or hostile? My colleagues have gotten physically injured. By UFOs, or by people within the government? Both.

After not holding a hearing on UFOs for more than half a century, Congress has recently held two in as many years. In that sense, we can count today’s events as historic. But as in the other hearings, this one had no big reveal, no grand answer to humankind’s most existential questions about our place in the universe. The hype surrounding the hearing—and there has been considerable hype—says more about the people who tuned in than about Grusch’s claims. Just as it did in the late 1940s, when stories of flying saucers over Washington state and crash landings in New Mexico captivated the nation, UFO fever today indicates that Americans feel that their government knows more than it’s letting on.

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2023/07/ufo-fever-congress-hearing-aliens/674835/

 

[mistermack]

He's not mad. 

 

[TheVat]

While I agree that Grusch's credibility needs further testing (and apparently he saw none of these things himself and cannot present any real evidence), I can also observe that photojournalists are skilled at the art of the unflattering photo.  

My problem with clandestine labs that are reverse engineering saucers or chunks thereof is that I know engineers like to drink.  The US government leaks like a sieve on its best days.  What are the chances that this shroud of secrecy could have been maintained for so long?  

[swansont]

Also consider that he’d be subject to prosecution if he divulged classified information, and several things he alleges would likely be classified if they were true.

 

[mistermack]

In a way, it's comforting to know that a house committee can have a sense of humour, even if they can't spell it. 🙂

[TheVat]

I don't hear a "U" in that word, Limey.  Now, back to my donut...

Yeah  there is something about taking testimony that makes such extraordinary claims but the testifier is legally enjoined from offering any evidence.  It just feeds the ongoing mythology, but not any real craving for information.

[TheVat]

More details about the subcommittee testimony  which included that "biologics" were recovered, not of terrestrial origin.  Also, an aerial encounter with a TicTac that reportedly demonstrated flight capabilities beyond present terrestrial technology.  

https://www.npr.org/2023/07/27/1190390376/ufo-hearing-non-human-biologics-uaps

Someone leak some pictures of the biologics, please.

[swansont]

6 hours ago, TheVat said:

More details about the subcommittee testimony  which included that "biologics" were recovered, not of terrestrial origin.  Also, an aerial encounter with a TicTac that reportedly demonstrated flight capabilities beyond present terrestrial technology.  

https://www.npr.org/2023/07/27/1190390376/ufo-hearing-non-human-biologics-uaps

Someone leak some pictures of the biologics, please.

It says non-human biologics, but says nothing about them being extraterrestrial in origin. Technically, recovering a human-made craft sent up with a dog or a chimp would qualify.

I’m curious that he’s termed a whistleblower; that’s a term for someone who reports some kind of wrongdoing to some designated person or group within the government.

 

edit:

“Sec. 1673 within the compromise bill language, titled “Unidentified anomalous phenomena reporting procedures,” outlines an original House provision related to reporting procedures for government employees related to UAP involving a secure method for authorized reporting (i.e., for “whistleblowers” possessing knowledge about past or current government programs related to UAP)”

https://thedebrief.org/compromise-2023-ndaa-outlines-provisions-for-military-disruptive-tech-uap-and-more/

So I’m guessing it relates to his knowledge of UAP programs

[TheVat]

15 hours ago, swansont said:

It says non-human biologics, but says nothing about them being extraterrestrial in origin. Technically, recovering a human-made craft sent up with a dog or a chimp would qualify.

The article didn't elaborate, so I would have to watch the two hour plus hearing - I think some reporting indicated that Grusch's replies did somewhat clarify that non-human was not meaning terrestrial animals (though he couldn't go into that in detail without them ducking into a SCIF).  

On the whistleblower status, my impression was that it was his mention of the unauthorized diversion of funds within DoD that would qualify for the standard definition of whistleblower.  Not sure I have the time (2 hour, 34 minutes) to rake through the video, but I can probably find a transcript and skim around.

JMO - if the DoD or other agencies have been covertly hoarding actual extraterrestrial biologics, this would be a slap in the face to life sciences and the transparency and data sharing it needs to thrive.  Vast new avenues of research would open up.  Humanity has a right to know of this, and  (on a more crass level) we in the US are paying taxes for these agencies and should be informed.  This isn't going to be like the 1938 Orson Welles broadcast scare, if people learn about ET remains.  

[swansont]

46 minutes ago, TheVat said:

JMO - if the DoD or other agencies have been covertly hoarding actual extraterrestrial biologics, this would be a slap in the face to life sciences and the transparency and data sharing it needs to thrive. 

It’s not just life sciences. The DoD’s position on information is in a long-standing and widespread conflict with the academic position on openness and sharing.

Even if they have top men working on it.

Top. Men. 

[swansont]

Video of an unidentified falling object

An example of why eyewitness testimony is unreliable

[mistermack]

It seems like a blatant waste of resources, to let government agencies and scientific establishments develop all of these techniques for taking samples on Mars and analysing the atmosphere of far distant exoplanets for any sign of biological gases, when our governments are well aware that the aliens have been coming to us. 

That's taking a cover up to rather ridiculous wasteful lengths. 

[swansont]

6 minutes ago, mistermack said:

It seems like a blatant waste of resources, to let government agencies and scientific establishments develop all of these techniques for taking samples on Mars and analysing the atmosphere of far distant exoplanets for any sign of biological gases, when our governments are well aware that the aliens have been coming to us. 

That's taking a cover up to rather ridiculous wasteful lengths. 

Circular reasoning. You’ve assumed a coverup in order to assert there’s a coverup.

[mistermack]

1 minute ago, swansont said:

Circular reasoning. You’ve assumed a coverup in order to assert there’s a coverup.

No, I was trying to illustrate why a cover up would be unlikely, and hence the visits by aliens would also be an unlikely scenario. 

If alien visits WERE known by the government, that would mean they've indulged in a hugely elaborate cover up including paying for pointless research into alien life on Mars and exoplanets.

[Moontanman]

1 hour ago, mistermack said:

No, I was trying to illustrate why a cover up would be unlikely, and hence the visits by aliens would also be an unlikely scenario. 

If alien visits WERE known by the government, that would mean they've indulged in a hugely elaborate cover up including paying for pointless research into alien life on Mars and exoplanets.

On the other hand the idea of aliens is not the only explanation on the table and the way the idea of aliens is often danced around has made many wonder if the explanation is something else. From secret Earth technology to travelers from other planes of existence to even time travelers (wouldn't it be ironic if we found out that travel to other planes of existence is easier than star travel?) since this is all speculation by definition why leave out these possibilities? Since all evidence so far presented is just eyewitness, hearsay, and or of unknown or undocumented origin why bother? It's no better than myths about fairies, trolls, angels, and or gods, in fact Jacques Vallée, protege of J. Allen Hynek had caused Hynek and others to begin to consider that UFOs were a manifestation of the same conditions that brought about mythological beings like fairies, trolls and such. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Vallée

Quote

In the mid-1960s, like many other UFO researchers, Vallée initially attempted to validate the popular Extraterrestrial Hypothesis (or ETH).

However, by 1969, Vallée's conclusions had changed, and he publicly stated that the ETH was too narrow and ignored too much data. Vallée began exploring the commonalities between UFOs, cults, religious movements, demons, angels, ghosts, cryptid sightings, and psychic phenomena. His speculation about these potential links was first detailed in his third UFO book, Passport to Magonia: From Folklore to Flying Saucers.[4]

As an alternative to the extraterrestrial visitation hypothesis, Vallée has suggested a multidimensional visitation hypothesis. This hypothesis represents an extension of the ETH where the alleged extraterrestrials could be potentially from anywhere. The entities could be multidimensional beyond space-time; thus they could coexist with humans, yet remain undetected.

Vallée's opposition to the popular ETH was not well received by prominent U.S. ufologists, hence he was viewed as something of an outcast. Indeed, Vallée refers to himself as a "heretic among heretics".

Vallée's opposition to the ETH theory is summarised in his paper, "Five Arguments Against the Extraterrestrial Origin of Unidentified Flying Objects", Journal of Scientific Exploration, 1990:

Scientific opinion has generally followed public opinion in the belief that unidentified flying objects either do not exist (the "natural phenomena hypothesis") or, if they do, must represent evidence of a visitation by some advanced race of space travellers (the extraterrestrial hypothesis or "ETH"). It is the view of the author that research on UFOs need not be restricted to these two alternatives. On the contrary, the accumulated data base exhibits several patterns tending to indicate that UFOs are real, represent a previously unrecognized phenomenon, and that the facts do not support the common concept of "space visitors". Five specific arguments articulated here contradict the ETH:

unexplained close encounters are far more numerous than required for any physical survey of the earth;

the humanoid body structure of the alleged "aliens" is not likely to have originated on another planet and is not biologically adapted to space travel;

the reported behavior in thousands of abduction reports contradicts the hypothesis of genetic or scientific experimentation on humans by an advanced race;

the extension of the phenomenon throughout recorded human history demonstrates that UFOs are not a contemporary phenomenon; and

the apparent ability of UFOs to manipulate space and time suggests radically different and richer alternatives.

Personally I don't believe the guy who has been made famous by his disclosure of UAP information, David Grusch, is either a pawn or a liar or both. He comes across like a bad used car salesman to me. Just IMHO.  

[TheVat]

29 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

As an alternative to the extraterrestrial visitation hypothesis, Vallée has suggested a multidimensional visitation hypothesis. This hypothesis represents an extension of the ETH where the alleged extraterrestrials could be potentially from anywhere. The entities could be multidimensional beyond space-time; thus they could coexist with humans, yet remain undetected.

I remember Vallee.  Seems like one problem was his hypothesis wasn't much of a hypothesis.  The alleged beings appeared to be three-dimensional and possess craft that would require time to construct and have bodies that would require time to evolve, so it's hard to see them coming from "beyond space-time."  Not clear what is meant by multidimensional visitation.  I just got up and went to the bathroom.  The bathroom was multidimensional and I visited it.  Not terribly anomalous.  

 

43 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

It's no better than myths about fairies, trolls, angels, and or gods, in fact Jacques Vallée, protege of J. Allen Hynek had caused Hynek and others to begin to consider that UFOs were a manifestation of the same conditions that brought about mythological beings like fairies, trolls and such. 

Conditions like us imagining things?  If something is like a fairy or angel, then it's also like a unicorn.  

[Moontanman]

5 hours ago, TheVat said:

I remember Vallee.  Seems like one problem was his hypothesis wasn't much of a hypothesis.  The alleged beings appeared to be three-dimensional and possess craft that would require time to construct and have bodies that would require time to evolve, so it's hard to see them coming from "beyond space-time."  Not clear what is meant by multidimensional visitation.  I just got up and went to the bathroom.  The bathroom was multidimensional and I visited it.  Not terribly anomalous.

I didn't mention dimensions, I said plane of existence... get with the program 🙃 and don't forget the time travelers. Yeah, I'm having a crisis of faith in UAPs, this whole "gush" of sudden info about UAP just doesn't ring true to me. 

5 hours ago, TheVat said:

Conditions like us imagining things?  If something is like a fairy or angel, then it's also like a unicorn.  

Unicorns are real, it's our image of them that is wrong. 

 

Edited August 26, 2023 by Moontanman

[npts2020]

On 8/26/2023 at 4:16 PM, Moontanman said:

this whole "gush" of sudden info about UAP just doesn't ring true to me. 

Unless you are planning on staging a fake "alien" landing so that a "more advanced authority" can tell humans what to do. Doing the bidding of god seems to be losing some of its attraction.