Would it be "racism" if it wasn't a Republican president?

[Pangloss]

Allow me to submit another example of how demogogery is dangerous.

 

 

Rapper Kanye West goes on national television and says "George Bush doesn't care about black people". Civic leaders and Democrats back him to the hilt, with the African American leadership saying that NBC was wrong to "censor" him when the show appeared on tape delay on the west coast.

 

But here's a nasty question I don't hear anyone in the media asking: Would he have said that if a Democrat were in the White House?

 

Consider: We can speculate with a fair degree of certainty that if Katrina had struck in 1997 the result would have been virtually the same. Louisiana has actually gotten MORE funding SINCE the Clinton administration left office for the purposes of dealing with the levee situation. So it's a reasonable conclusion that the city would have flooded, and that the situation 2-3 days into the aftermath would have been very similar.

 

If we assume for the sake of argument that FEMA and outside Guard help is called in at exactly the same moment, then we already have widespread looting, death, and mayhem on the ground. Affecting exactly the same people.

 

Would Kanye West have stood there on national television and stated that Bill Clinton, the first African American president, didn't care about black people?

 

And if not, then the question gets even uglier: Why did he say it? If he isn't willing to apply that same label to whomever happens to be sitting in the White House at that theoretical moment, then why not?

 

 

It's easy to follow a rabble rouser. Thinking is harder. And NOTHING about freedom is easy except throwing it away.

 

 

"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is an absurd one."

- Voltaire

[Nevermore]

It's quite clear that you are a Bush fanboy, and thats fine, but please don't troll.

[Mokele]

and stated that Bill Clinton, the first African American president,

 

Wait, what? Did I miss something here?

 

And Nevermore, Pangloss is definitely *not* a Bush toady. He's just sick of this tragedy being exploited for political gain. Frankly, I agree with him. I grew up in NO, spent the first decade of my life there, and before this, was considering working extra hard to find an eventual professorship there. I've been hearing about this *exact* scenario ("The city is below sea level, and if the levees break due to flood or hurricane, we're doomed") since I can remember, in the early eighties. It's probably been known before then.

 

The whole thing is a collosal screw-up, but the blame rests on human nature, logistics, and just plain chance, with *some* resting on Bush, but not all by a long shot.

 

The city I loved most has just been drowned. Show some f---ing respect and don't warp it into another political tool.

 

Mokele

[Skye]

Would he have said that if a Democrat were in the White House?

Probably not, but that doesn't mean he's wrong. Bush might hate black people, I don't know. The main thing here is that there's nothing to actually show that Bush hates black people though, that I know of anyway, so it's just a baseless comment.

[bascule]

Pangloss is definitely *not* a Bush toady. He's just sick of this tragedy being exploited for political gain.

 

Then why is he further compounding exploitation of this tragedy to make a point about political bias in the media?

 

The bottom line is that his argument is fundamentally based on a category fallacy... there are idiotic pundits on either side who will make stupid comments about just about anything.

[Dak]

Rapper Kanye West goes on national television and says "George Bush doesn't care about black people". Civic leaders and Democrats back him to the hilt, with the African American leadership saying that NBC was wrong to "censor" him when the show appeared on tape delay on the west coast.

 

im surprised no-one has accused bush of trying to fiddle the votes again.

 

after all, i believe that blacks are more inclined to vote democrat, and bush is a republican: hes already been accused of trying to prevent democrat-voting-demographics from voting, and of preventing blacks from voting in the process (the first election that he won), I'd have thought that this would be 'one big conspiracy to rid the world of some democrat voters, and if that kills aload of blacks then sobeit'.

[Phi for All]

Frankly, I think most of why people are angry with Bush is that he waited too long coming off another month-long vacation to react to the crisis. They are grasping at any reason to blame, like racism, but it really comes down to the fact that he spends too much time away from where people think he should be.

[ecoli]

I don't think he's stupid enough, or at least his administration wouldn't let him be stupid enough, to comprise the republican's parties chance at the presidential seat, by having people find out he's racist. Even if he is, it wouldn't be allowed to get out. I think the dems are just trying to slander him. But it's working, I heard on the radio that Bush only has 36% approval rating.

[john5746]

But here's a nasty question I don't hear anyone in the media asking: Would he have said that if a Democrat were in the White House?

 

No, they would be blaming the "White Republican Congress"

 

Even more serious, if it were poor whites or poor hispanics, would you hear any of the Black leaders at all? Don't get me wrong, plenty of black people behind the scenes helping and would do so in any case, but as for the ones yelling racism in the spotlight, would they be involved if this didn't involve primarily black people? Would they be guilty of racism?

[ecoli]

No' date=' they would be blaming the "White Republican Congress"

 

Even more serious, if it were poor whites or poor hispanics, would you hear any of the Black leaders at all? Don't get me wrong, plenty of black people behind the scenes helping and would do so in any case, but as for the ones yelling racism in the spotlight, would they be involved if this didn't involve primarily black people? Would they be guilty of racism?[/quote']

 

Of course not. Unfortunately, racism is treating people unfairly. Not "failure to treat" - unless you're white, of course.

[bascule]

No' date=' they would be blaming the "White Republican Congress"

 

Even more serious, if it were poor whites or poor hispanics, would you hear any of the Black leaders at all? Don't get me wrong, plenty of black people behind the scenes helping and would do so in any case, but as for the ones yelling racism in the spotlight, would they be involved if this didn't involve primarily black people? Would they be guilty of racism?[/quote']

 

Wow, you can sure do some character damage with unanswerable hypotheticals spun to make someone look bad.

 

I wish political debate were reasonable and revolved around sound logic, but instead we have demagogic punditry which uses the most fallacious or otherwise specious reasoning to further increase senseless political polarization.

 

Hey, how about we try to draw logical conclusions from the facts rather than indulging in idle speculation designed to make the other side look bad.

 

In the words of Jon Stewart... "Stop hurting America"

[john5746]

Wow' date=' you can sure do some character damage with unanswerable hypotheticals spun to make someone look bad.

 

I wish political debate were reasonable and revolved around sound logic, but instead we have demagogic punditry which uses the most fallacious or otherwise specious reasoning to further increase senseless political polarization.

 

Hey, how about we try to draw logical conclusions from the facts rather than indulging in idle speculation designed to make the other side look bad.

 

In the words of Jon Stewart... "Stop hurting America"[/quote']

 

Point taken, guess I'm getting a little tired of people yelling racism everytime something bad happens. I see no evidence of racism and do not believe the government could coordinate such a thing if it wanted to anyway. Since no one is calling the governor racist, this is proof that democrats are getting a free ride from that label.

 

Saying conservatives are racist is akin to saying liberals are not patriotic. Politics has nothing to do with racism or patriotism.

[swansont]

If we assume for the sake of argument that FEMA and outside Guard help is called in at exactly the same moment' date=' then we already have widespread looting, death, and mayhem on the ground. Affecting exactly the same people.

[/quote']

 

 

But why assume this? Clinton had James Lee Witt, a FEMA director that was good at his job, and the local guard wasn't missing however many troops are currently in Iraq at the moment.

[swansont]

Point taken' date=' guess I'm getting a little tired of people yelling racism everytime something bad happens. I see no evidence of racism and do not believe the government could coordinate such a thing if it wanted to anyway. Since no one is calling the governor racist, this is proof that democrats are getting a free ride from that label.

 

Saying conservatives are racist is akin to saying liberals are not patriotic. Politics has nothing to do with racism or patriotism.[/quote']

 

Some people are always going to cry racism, as you imply. Some people have been calling the situation racist. How do you extrapolate that into "proof that democrats are getting a free ride from that label" ?

[budullewraagh]

i think the government just doesnt care about the poor. there is a war on everything except poverty. the gov can get an army to the middle east overnight, but only finished evacuating new orleans after a week. they could have provided transportation for the poor and car-less, but did not. george bush doesnt care about poor people

[john5746]

Some people are always going to cry racism, as you imply. Some people have been calling the situation racist. How do you extrapolate that into "proof that democrats are getting a free ride from that label" ?

 

Because the Governor had as much to do with the lack of response as anyone, yet no one is calling her or her administration racist. The Mayor is black, so of course he isn't a racist.

[john5746]

i think the government just doesnt care about the poor. there is a war on everything except poverty. the gov can get an army to the middle east overnight, but only finished evacuating new orleans after a week. they could have provided transportation for the poor and car-less, but did not. george bush doesnt care about poor people

 

I agree that someone should have had a plan and executed the plan to evacuate the poor out of the city and provided supplies to those that weren't evacuated. I think this is primarily the local and state government. They know their city better than anyone.

 

I'm not sure how much Bush cares about poor people. I don't think you know either.

[bascule]

Some people are always going to cry racism, as you imply. Some people have been calling the situation racist. How do you extrapolate that into "proof that democrats are getting a free ride from that label" ?

 

Simple, a category fallacy.

[Pangloss]

My hat is off the ScienceForums Debate Team. That's one heck of a set of posts up there. You people are ruining the stereotype that electronic debate consists of nothing more than flame wars and cat fights. (grin) I even find myself nodding grudgingly at Bascule's comment that I've made a categorization fallacy -- it's a fair point. Seriously, nicely done. I really enjoyed reading this thread.

 

 

I guess the only thing I can really take a lick at is this:

 

i think the government just doesnt care about the poor. there is a war on everything except poverty.

 

By my calculation we spend as much in the War on Poverty every day as we spend in Iraq every week (and that only if you assume $200 billion/year on Iraq' date=' which I think is unlikely).

 

Since 1964 we've spent $6.6 [i']trillion[/i] in the War on Poverty (according to George Will's column this morning in the Washginton Post*).

 

How's that working out for us so far?

 

 

 

* (subscription)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/12/AR2005091201260.html

[swansont]

Because the Governor had as much to do with the lack of response as anyone

 

How do you figure that? She asked for federal help before the hurricane hit.

[swansont]

i think the government just doesnt care about the poor. there is a war on everything except poverty. the gov can get an army to the middle east overnight, but only finished evacuating new orleans after a week. they could have provided transportation for the poor and car-less, but did not.

 

I have to agree with Pangloss on the war on poverty part. One problem is that neither side can agree on how to address the problem, in part because people look for simple answers to complex issues. the reason that people are poor can't be traced back to one or two causes.

 

And to think the government can provide transportation for ~100,000 people on 24 hrs notice is, I think, ludicrous. What constituency is going to pay for such a fleet to be maintained? The sad truth, I think, is that planning for the future isn't rewarded in our government. Politicians don't want to spend money on something that will be of benefit later on, when they are maybe no longer in office, and gain more political benefit from cutting the spending and taking credit for that.

[bascule]

My hat is off the ScienceForums Debate Team. That's one heck of a set of posts up there. You people are ruining the stereotype that electronic debate consists of nothing more than flame wars and cat fights. (grin) I even find myself nodding grudgingly at Bascule's comment that I've made a categorization fallacy -- it's a fair point. Seriously, nicely done. I really enjoyed reading this thread.

 

To be fair, I really don't know how anyone can criticize Bush for being a racist. He's been the only president to ever have black Secretaries of State, and gave Condoleeza Rice the highest ranking position a black woman has ever had in American government. He's been the first Republican (in awhile, at least) to significantly erode a significant margin the black vote away from the Democrats. These are hardly the actions of a racist...

[john5746]

How do you figure that? She asked for federal help before the hurricane hit.

 

http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/columns/story/2790114p-9229327c.html

 

The comparison to 9/11 isn't quite fair, especially the police, but the jist of the report is correct. The Federal response should have been better - I have argued that in other threads, but that doesn't mean no one else made mistakes.

 

The people who could have gotten out and didn't made a mistake. The Mayor and Governor had plans in place and didn't follow them. Also, there are the cases of her not asking FEMA to take control, not allowing the Red Cross in, etc.

 

And just from my experience in the working world, when I have responsibility for something and ask for help, I don't just ask one time and sit back waiting. I bug the crap out of them, ask for specific things and work with the people I am asking help from. And when things go wrong, telling my boss that I asked them doesn't cut it. And I am not responsible for people's lives.

 

But, let me be clear: There was no racism involved, it is just political mudslinging - toward a Republican president and not at a Democrat governor.

[abeefaria]

no, are you kidding?

[Pangloss]

For what it's worth, some of my friends here in South Florida say that FEMA responded to Katrina MUCH faster than it responded to Andrew. I would hope so, since Andrew was *13 years* ago, but it's worth noting that Andrew has been listed several times over the last couple of weeks as a FEMA *success* story, which most here in South Florida consider to be an outrageous fabrication. (Mea culpa: I didn't live here at the time.)

 

The reason why I think that came up is because the FEMA director at the time was Clinton's man, who is generally being held up now as "the comparison" -- the guy who left it "working" so it ain't his fault that it's "broken". I believe he's been hired by the governor of Louisiana to aid the state effort in cleanup and restoration.

 

My point just being that spin is spin, and both sides get pretty outrageous about it sometimes. Have these people no shame? How long will it be before we see Michael Brown running for some office in a red state somewhere, blaming his plight on Senate Democrats and anybody-but-Bush reactionism, rather than his own resume-doctoring bad behavior?

 

Just as a side note, something like 180 homes were destroyed by Katrina in South Florida, and FEMA won't help them because they're below the 800-homes threshold. How's that for a kick in the pants?