The legacy of Neanderthal genes in the Sapien gene pool.

[Tugrul]

I welcome the fact that certain neantherthal genes are with us to this day but....

 

Neantherthal and human mating may have only produced an infertile hybrid, just like donkey and a horse.

[bascule]

Just my gut reaction to this thread:

 

As far as I am aware there is zero, zip, nada, zilch, none, no way, no evidence of Neanderthal genes in our genome.

 

Does someone beg to differ? Please provide links to a peer reviewed scientific paper published in a major journal ktks.

[SH3RL0CK]

It would appear genetic evidence has now determined that for non-African humans, humans are 1-4% Neanderthals:

 

http://www.boston.com/news/science/articles/2010/05/07/theres_a_little_neanderthal_in_us/?p1=Well_MostPop_Emailed4

 

Not sure what implications this might have regarding how we view ourselves...

[toastywombel]

It would appear genetic evidence has now determined that for non-African humans, humans are 1-4% Neanderthals:

 

http://www.boston.com/news/science/articles/2010/05/07/theres_a_little_neanderthal_in_us/?p1=Well_MostPop_Emailed4

 

Not sure what implications this might have regarding how we view ourselves...

 

Elaborating on the same study,

 

A new study of the Neandertal genome shows that humans and Neandertals interbred. The discovery comes as a big surprise to researchers who have been searching for genetic evidence of human-Neandertal interbreeding for years and finding none.

 

About 1 percent to 4 percent of DNA in modern people from Europe and Asia was inherited from Neandertals, researchers report in the May 7 Science. “It’s a small, but very real proportion of our ancestry,” says study coauthor David Reich of the Broad Institute of MIT and Harvard in Cambridge, Mass. Comparisons of the human and Neandertal genomes are also revealing how humans evolved to become the sole living hominid species on the planet.

 

“After all these years the geneticists are coming to the same conclusions that some of us in the field of archaeology and human paleontology have had for a long time,” says João Zilhão, an archaeologist and paleoanthropologist at the University of Bristol in England. “What can I say? If the geneticists come to this same conclusion, that’s to be expected.”

 

http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/58936/title/Neandertal_genome_yields_evidence_of_interbreeding_with_humans

 

"Those of us who live outside Africa carry a little Neanderthal DNA in us," said Svante Paabo of the Max Planck Institute in Munich, Germany, who led the study.

 

http://www.newsdaily.com/stories/tre6455bw-us-neanderthals-genes/

 

Just my gut reaction to this thread:

 

As far as I am aware there is zero' date=' zip, nada, zilch, none, no way, no evidence of Neanderthal genes in our genome.

 

Does someone beg to differ? Please provide links to a peer reviewed scientific paper published in a major journal ktks.

[/quote']

 

You spoke to soon

[Skye]

john smith, political discussions are found here.

 

my question, does the percent of dna decrease the closer you get to these traits (hair color, eye color) or increase?

No. The Neandertal genome seemed equally closely related to Chinese, Papuan and French genomes.

[Sisyphus]

So there's no evidence of Neanderthal DNA in sub-Saharan African populations? How is that possible? Surely the populations of homo sapiens couldn't have been that isolated from one another, that Neanderthal DNA couldn't have spread to all populations in the timeframe of tens of thousands of years?

 

Moderator note: Please limit political discussion to the politics forum.

[Mr Skeptic]

They were isolated enough to form distinct "races" with distinctive traits such as skin color. Even with some mixing, if the Neanderthal genes were particularly bad in Africa then they would not be able to persist there.

[insane_alien]

that and most migration appears to have been away from africa.

[SH3RL0CK]

that and most migration appears to have been away from africa.

 

But why should this be? Why wouldn't there be migrations in both directions?

 

However, looking at the evidence, it does appear to be the case. Maybe the Sahara desert is a large enough obstacle that it couldn't be crossed by a substantial number of people (though I'm fairly certain it wasn't always a desert- and besides the Nile River and the oceans provide paths around it)?

 

The theory that modern Homo sapiens drove away Neanderthals (hence none in Africa) doesn't seem to fit given I think there must have been significant interbreeding to add even 1% to the genome of a population.

[swansont]

Moderator note: Please limit political discussion to the politics forum.

 

Mod piggyback note: politics posts (and a response) have been removed

[CharonY]

I think there must have been significant interbreeding to add even 1% to the genome of a population

 

Actually no it doesn't. It depends on a number of factors including e.g. initial population size, but assuming that the matings happened early in the expansion, a remnant of 1% does not account for much and looks much like neutral residues.

Oh and also the expansion waves were mostly out of Africa. Even if there was a bit of a backflow the neanderthal alleles could have been lost as it would be lost in the existing larger population.

Edited May 13, 2010 by CharonY

[Ophiolite]

I am not sure why the links posted so far have all been to popular accounts of the research. The original paper in Science is available here. Normally a subscription is required to access more than the abstract, but the editors have made this one available, presumably because of the anticipated interest extending beyond experts in the field.

[CharonY]

Hmm good point, Ophiolite. I actually only read the paper, maybe that is a source of confusion.

[Eureka Bud]

RE: You do know that neanderthals have 48 chromosomes right?

-----------------------------------------

So, how do we know what the Neanderthal chromsome count was? This could cast a big light on where and when the Human 46 chromosome count came into being. Of course, there are species with different chromosome counts that have been known to interbreed, so a count different doesn't neccesarily preclude genetic mixing.

 

Interestingly enough, the Human chromosome #2, which accounts for the reduction from a 48-count to a 46-count, doesn't seem to contain the genes that make Humans unique from homonid primates. Human chromosome 2 corresponds to primate chromosomes 12 and 13 which have mysteriously been joint by "Robertsonian Translocation" but The fusion of chromosome 2 has inactivated three regions of activity, one pericentric and two telemeric, thus the centromere of 13 has been switched off. That means that an individual with a Robertsonian fusion can carry on the fusion successfully. It may inhibit fertility to some extent, but doesn't preclude all opportunities to bear healthy offspring.

 

Wild Horses (Equus ferus przewalskii) have 66 chromosomes. Domestic horses (Equus caballus) have 64 chromosomes, and Donkeys have 62 chromosomes. Crossing a wild horse with a domestic horse produces a horse with 65 chromosomes. So, the chromosome count doesn't necessarily have to match to provide offspring as in syngamy.

 

So, back to my original question: How do we know what the Neanderthal chromsome count was?

[King, North TX]

I don't think Cro Magnum man would have been too keen on breeding with the Neadrathals. We are already biggoted towards people that have almost no genetic differences from us at all. I think when we saw a neandrathal man or woman we killed them if we could. We probably thought it disgusting to think of mating with them and shunned anyone who had a Neanderthal parent. Even still, some genes might have snuck in.

 

This is going to come off as overly-harsh, but would the comparison be like the difference between someone with down-syndrome and someone without it?

 

Natural selectionally speaking, how 'sexy' is something that is slower both mentally and physically, that other breeding options?

 

I mean, if 'I' could choose any breeding partner I could, I'd want a beauty who was athletically gifted. Then again, when times are tough, I guess one takes what they can get. 2:00 am at the bar has led to alpha and gamma hook-ups, of this I am CERTAIN.

 

From everything I've read, there was some inter-breeding between the two lines.

[Moontanman]

I've often thought the idea of Sapiens and Neanderthal mating was interesting, i see no reason to think that Neanderthals were inferior to us mentally but they were definitely different, their culture shows almost no sign of trading or commerce between distant places and Sapiens was all about trading for resources between distant places.

 

This trading by it's self would have given Sapiens a leg up simply due to being able to get the materials for tools in trade rather than having to find sources of tool making materials close by to survive. I think this idea of commerce is what separated us and them and led to their decline and extinction.

 

King you like to look to the Bible for historical data, I can't recall the scripture but at once point the a man had two sons, one was hairy and was a great hunter the other was not so hairy and was a farmer. the father favored the hairy wild son but his farmer son connived to take the harry brothers blessing from his dying father. it resulted in the farmer brother taking the birth right of the hairy wild brother.

 

This has always reminded me of the Sapiens vs Neanderthal and how they first encountered each other in the land now call Palestine. Could this story have been an explanation of how Sapiens stole the birth right of the Neanderthals? Also Esau was covered in red hair and Neanderthals were though to be redheaded to some extent.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esau

 

Curiously, the Old Testament of the Bible does not tell us which of these views is correct, whether in God's eyes Esau was cheated by Jacob or whether Esau carelessly sold his birthright to Jacob. However, the New Testament Hebrews 12:15–16, depicts Esau as unspiritual for thoughtlessly throwing away his birthright. In Esau's mother and father's eyes, the deception may have been deserved. Rebekah later abets Jacob in receiving his father's blessing disguised as Esau. Isaac then refuses to take Jacob's blessing back after learning he was tricked, and does not give this blessing to Esau but, after Esau begs, gives him an inferior blessing (Genesis 27:34–40).

 

In Genesis 27:1–40, Jacob uses deception to trick his father Isaac into giving him the blessing normally due to the eldest, instead of giving it to Esau. Jacob's deception also engenders controversy, while motivated in fact by Rebekah, the mother of both Jacob and Esau and Isaac's beloved wife. In Genesis 25:22–23:

[King, North TX]

...

 

King you like to look to the Bible for historical data...

 

...

 

I'm a historian. I find some value in ALL ancient texts.

[Moontanman]

I'm a historian. I find some value in ALL ancient texts.

 

Then your take on this would be even more important to me. I remember the first time i heard this story, I was about 12 years old. i immediately looked it up in the bible and the thought occurred to me that this could be an analogy of when humans took the world from Neanderthals.

 

At the time I was convinced the bible was a text on the way the earth and man had evolved but primitive humans had not the scope of or the idea of science and they interpreted the words of God in a completely different context than they were meant to be understood.

[King, North TX]

Then your take on this would be even more important to me. I remember the first time i heard this story, I was about 12 years old. i immediately looked it up in the bible and the thought occurred to me that this could be an analogy of when humans took the world from Neanderthals.

 

At the time I was convinced the bible was a text on the way the earth and man had evolved but primitive humans had not the scope of or the idea of science and they interpreted the words of God in a completely different context than they were meant to be understood.

 

The story does marry nicely...

 

Except when the Neanderthal show back up with an army, and they DON'T start slaughtering the smooth skinned identity thief.

 

Of course, the end result (us, sans our hairy 'wild' smelling brethren) would lead us to believe there was no reconciliation. We aren't co-existing with any bigfoot, in a social manner that is.

[Moontanman]

The story does marry nicely...

 

Except when the Neanderthal show back up with an army, and they DON'T start slaughtering the smooth skinned identity thief.

 

Of course, the end result (us, sans our hairy 'wild' smelling brethren) would lead us to believe there was no reconciliation. We aren't co-existing with any bigfoot, in a social manner that is.

 

That would be how humans dressed up the story so it matched their own preconceptions. The fact remains that the shiny naked humans were the linage down through which humanity was passed. In the bible it would have just been the Jewish people but at the time I thought the bible was a larger story than just the Jewish people, a larger story that took place many tens or even hundreds of thousands of years ago not just 6000 years.

 

It turns out there is not much to my young theory but there are a few amazing match ups or so i recall thinking at the time. Although the one above is the best I remember. Much of the stuff is obviously stories from other religions or times earlier than the Jewish religion. Sorry this is way off topic, if we want to continue to discuss this King a new thread should be made.

[The Peon]

It's fascinating to see that years after I made my own opinions on the subject they are finally being validated.

[lemur]

I don't think Cro Magnum man would have been too keen on breeding with the Neadrathals. We are already biggoted towards people that have almost no genetic differences from us at all. I think when we saw a neandrathal man or woman we killed them if we could. We probably thought it disgusting to think of mating with them and shunned anyone who had a Neanderthal parent. Even still, some genes might have snuck in.

Don't assume that racism is only responsible for disgust and not attraction to the "exotic." If these two 'species' were capable of 'inter'breeding to produce viable offspring, it is likely that some culture of attraction existed that created an interest in 'inter'breeding. It would be interesting, however, to study the cultural logics that paved the way to interracial relationships. Racism is fascinating, especially where it intersects with sexuality.

[UMpastor]

I've often thought the idea of Sapiens and Neanderthal mating was interesting, i see no reason to think that Neanderthals were inferior to us mentally but they were definitely different, their culture shows almost no sign of trading or commerce between distant places and Sapiens was all about trading for resources between distant places.

 

This trading by it's self would have given Sapiens a leg up simply due to being able to get the materials for tools in trade rather than having to find sources of tool making materials close by to survive. I think this idea of commerce is what separated us and them and led to their decline and extinction.

 

King you like to look to the Bible for historical data, I can't recall the scripture but at once point the a man had two sons, one was hairy and was a great hunter the other was not so hairy and was a farmer. the father favored the hairy wild son but his farmer son connived to take the harry brothers blessing from his dying father. it resulted in the farmer brother taking the birth right of the hairy wild brother.

 

This has always reminded me of the Sapiens vs Neanderthal and how they first encountered each other in the land now call Palestine. Could this story have been an explanation of how Sapiens stole the birth right of the Neanderthals? Also Esau was covered in red hair and Neanderthals were though to be redheaded to some extent.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esau

 

 

 

 

While I understand that this is a science forum, since someone brought up the Bible, a better place of textual evidence for Nenderthal and homo sapien interbreeding would be Genesis 6:1-4. Some believe the Nephilim mentioned in this text to be Neanderthal man.

[Moontanman]

While I understand that this is a science forum, since someone brought up the Bible, a better place of textual evidence for Nenderthal and homo sapien interbreeding would be Genesis 6:1-4. Some believe the Nephilim mentioned in this text to be Neanderthal man.

 

 

I am interested in this, I have never considered nephilim to be possible neanderthals, do you have any links to who believes this and why? Your passage simply mentions nephilim, were they the sons of god who had sons by the humans?

[UMpastor]

I am interested in this, I have never considered nephilim to be possible neanderthals, do you have any links to who believes this and why? Your passage simply mentions nephilim, were they the sons of god who had sons by the humans?

 

 

the best resource I can point you toward is a show called "The Naked Archeologist" which is aired on the History International channel. Unfortunately the shows are not available on DVD and you may have to watch a number of the shows before they replay the one on his study of the Nephilim which comes from a Hebrew root word meaning "fallen" which can also have a connotation according to one of the meanings in my Hebrew lexicon of being less in some way. Sorry that I don't have a link, but this was the first I had heard of such a link, and according to the science noted here which is why I was seaching for information of possible physical evidence of homo sapien and neanderthal breeding, it is a plausible explanation of this passage.