Under God

[ydoaPs]

It is now unconstitutional....again.

[Hellbender]

Good. *Gloats* take that, syntax!!

[Pangloss]

Some of you may recall that the reason this issue is up again is because the Supreme Court basically dodged the issue, sending it back to the lower courts because they felt that the litigant lacked standing (because he's not his daughter's legal guardian). I still haven't heard how that aspect of the case was resolved, but this will surely come before the Supremes again, possibly in the coming term.

 

My gut instinct is that it will be upheld in spite of the conservative bent of the court (i.e. the traditional reciting of the Pledge will become illegal). But I'm not a good predicter of such things.

[Kyrisch]

I don't say the pledge at all, actually. I refuse to pledge allegience to a government that tells the citizens nothing.

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

I just mumble it.

[Bettina]

I don't say the pledge at all, actually. I refuse to pledge allegience to a government that tells the citizens nothing.

 

I know where your coming from when you say that, but I will always pledge allegience to my country (not the jerk in power) because a lot of soldiers died just so you can say those words.

 

Bettina

[BobbyJoeCool]

I refuse to say parts of the pledge. Liberty and Justice for all... bull. Under God... bull. indivisible... bull. But I do pledge allegnece to the flag of the united states of america...

[Hellbender]

I remember saying it, but not really caring. Its one of those things that are said so much, they start to lose meaning. It only started to piss me off when I though back to my public school days. I believe its ok for people to swear allegiance to their country, but not to a particular religion's god when living in such a pluralistic society. Its hypocritical.

[Sum Deus]

I know where your coming from when you say that' date=' but I will always pledge allegience to my country (not the jerk in power) because a lot of soldiers died just so you can say those words.

 

Bettina[/quote']

 

I am an anti-war extremist and so I don't really give a crap. Those people can go kill themselves pointlessly all they want.

[Helix]

In Catholic school we had to stand in rank 'n file and pledge. So my friends and I would sing the NoFx version. Much more fun.

[Commie_Pinko]

I say the Pledge, but when I come to the God part I just say "tiddlywinks."

[john5746]

I say the Pledge, but when I come to the God part I just say "tiddlywinks."

 

You are free to do that or say "me" or whatever. Freedom of religion doesn't mean that the idea of a God must be abolished. God can mean Allah, Jesus or the forces that keep our universe intact. Just because the guy next to you thinks it is Allah or Jesus shouldn't really bother you.

 

I don't think it matters one way or the other, but whining about small matters like this is idiotic. I think Atheists are more tolerant than their religious counterparts, stuff like this makes us look just like them.

[Glider]

I know where your coming from when you say that' date=' but I will always pledge allegience to my country (not the jerk in power) because a lot of soldiers died just so you can say those words.

 

Bettina[/quote']

True, but had the outcomes been different, you would probably still be made, by the state, to stand and pledge allegience to it daily, albeit in German or Japanese. So, what's the real difference?

 

I find the whole concept of making kids stand in schools and pledge allegience to the state a bit creepy. Maybe it's just me.

[Pangloss]

You folks realize, don't you, that the very most radical change anyone can expect here is that the words "under God" will be removed from the Pledge, and that's all?

[alibabba]

Is it not true that this ruling applies only to the schools in Judge Karlton's district? And then, only if the judge orders those schools to cease reciting the pledge? Which, he has not as yet, done?

 

And if this ruling is appealed, that there is a significent chance that he will be overruled? And if not, that the SCOTUS will hear the case and that he will be overruled there?

 

I think it is premature to pronounce the pledge as "unconstitutional" based on one judges rulling.....don't you?

[Pangloss]

In fact the 9th ciruit didn't rule on constitutionality at all, if I remember correctly. They simply decided that the "under god" phrase was illegal due to a 2002 9th Circuit decision which was (pointedly) not overruled by the US Supreme Court (because the plaintiff lacked legal standing).

 

In a sense, it basically amounts to a process ruling. Subject to a certain degree of interpretation, the judge can be said to have had no real choice in the matter, and this is just part of the process of sending the issue back to the Supreme Court.

 

That process was initiated by the original plaintiff (Newdow) finding three other students and representing them as their lawyer instead of a litigant.

 

Put another way, we've been unable to resolve this issue as a society to everyone's satisfaction. A legal position exists which is not acceptable to all citizens, and so we're going through a process by which the disatisfied citizens are following the last legal recourse available to them.

 

The reason I put it that way is that it's important to place that contextual framework around any decision that the SCOTUS finally makes. They're not lawmakers. Any radical changes they cause to happen can ultimately be viewed as a failure by the other branches of government to come up with acceptable answers within the confines of their constitutional powers. In other words, if Congress passes a law that is clearly unconstitutional, the judicial branch has no choice but to reject it. That's a failure not of the judicial branch, but of the legislative one.

 

Whether that is the case here is a matter of interpretation.

[Hellbender]

You folks realize, don't you, that the very most radical change anyone can expect here is that the words "under God" will be removed from the Pledge, and that's all?

Yes. Thats fine with me, but I don't know about the other members.

[Bettina]

I am an anti-war extremist and so I don't really give a crap. Those people can go kill themselves pointlessly all they want.

 

Being anti-war is one thing, not really giving a **** is something entirely different.

 

Bettina

[-Demosthenes-]

Dang, I don't think that saying it because "people died for it" is a good reason... During the Civil War people in the South died to protect the right of a state to institutionalize slavery if they want, that doesn't mean it's a very good thing... but I can see your point.

 

You should say the pledge because you feel like you want to "pledge" you're allegence to a country you're grateful for, and if you're not and you don't want to say it, then don't say it, big deal.

 

I think the "Under God" has more to do with the U.S. seeming like a country ordained of God, or something like that.

[Hellbender]

I think the "Under God" has more to do with the U.S. seeming like a country ordained of God, or something like that.

Well prior to 1952, it was "indivisible", then they changed it to "under god".

[swansont]

Well prior to 1952, it was "indivisible", then they changed it to "under god".

 

To distinguish the US from the "Godless communists"

 

I recall reciting it with "indivisible" in the 60's. Maybe both...

 

"One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all"

 

Like it's not just a bunch of indoctrination, because third-graders have a real grasp of the concepts involved.

[alibabba]

Well prior to 1952, it was "indivisible", then they changed it to "under god".

 

Actually, "indivisable" is still there, "under God" was added.

[j_p]

... My gut instinct is that it will be upheld in spite of the conservative bent of the court (i.e. the traditional reciting of the Pledge will become illegal). ...

 

As Hellbender has pointed out, removing 'under God' would be a return to the traditional recitation.

[5614]

You have to do this in school?

 

... Woa, you Americans are weird!!!

 

 

(You don't need to do that in the UK, at least I've never even heard of one in which you do, obviously not swear to the USA, but to the country or anything else, maybe some religious schools have some kinda religious thing, but that's different)

[ydoaPs]

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under Canada and above Mexico, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.