Under God

[alibabba]

You have to do this in school?

 

No, recitation of the pledge in any form is voluntary.

 

 

... Woa, you Americans are weird!!!

 

Ain't we tho......

 

(You don't need to do that in the UK, at least I've never even heard of one in which you do, obviously not swear to the USA, but to the country or anything else, maybe some religious schools have some kinda religious thing, but that's different)

 

And neither do we, but we can if we want to.....

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

You have to do this in school?

 

... Woa' date=' you Americans are weird!!![/quote']

Plus a minute of silence.

 

You need a note from your parents to get out of it.

[ydoaPs]

No, recitation of the pledge in any form is voluntary.

not true. we also are forced to have a "moment of silence" too, by law

[Hellbender]

Actually, "indivisable" is still there, "under God" was added[/b'].

I thought it was both? That "under god, indivisble" was one and just "under god" was another way. I don't remember...

[swansont]

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under Canada and above Mexico[/b'], indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

 

 

They'll be after you "North-centric" bastards next. Discrimination on the basis of axis-orientation. Shame on you.

[Pangloss]

As Hellbender has pointed out, removing 'under God' would be a return[/i'] to the traditional recitation.

 

I'm aware of the history, but I appreciate the thought towards accuracy.

[ecoli]

True' date=' but had the outcomes been different, you would probably still be made, by the state, to stand and pledge allegience to it daily, albeit in German or Japanese. So, what's the real difference?

 

I find the whole concept of making kids stand in schools and pledge allegience to the state a bit creepy. Maybe it's just me.[/quote']

 

This is completely not true. If Germany had won the war, they would have forced the US to give up it's Jews to the camps, as a result my grandfather, granmother and entire family would have killed.

 

I'd proudly pledge to a country that allowed to have a life as a free individual. The mere fact that were allowed to protest and publicly denounce the present government makes me proud of my country.

[zyncod]

I find the whole concept of making kids stand in schools and pledge allegience to the state a bit creepy. Maybe it's just me.

Yeah - I agree. The "I pledge allegiance.." part bothers me a lot more than "under God." It smacks of state-sponsored indoctrination.

[Douglas]

but I will always pledge allegience to my country............ because a lot of soldiers died just so you can say those words.

 

Bettina

I'm with you Bettina

[john5746]

You have to do this in school?

 

... Woa' date=' you Americans are weird!!!

 

 

[i'](You don't need to do that in the UK, at least I've never even heard of one in which you do, obviously not swear to the USA, but to the country or anything else, maybe some religious schools have some kinda religious thing, but that's different)[/i]

 

Weird to have children learn to love their country and recite a simple pledge? Might help stop home grown terrorism, ya think?

 

First, Britian might want to come up with an official Anthem and update it.

[Pangloss]

I think the "indoctrination" qualm is an understandable one, but how many people do you (any of us) know who are mindless automatons because they recited the Pledge of Allegiance in school? Maybe we should look on it as part of the learning experience. After all, reciting the Pledge doesn't seem to have stopped a great number of people from joining the anti-war movement.

[Glider]

Yeah - I agree. The "I pledge allegiance.." part bothers me a lot more than "under God." It smacks of state-sponsored indoctrination.

Thank you. 'Indoctrination', that's the word I was looking for (couldn't think of it before ).

 

In the UK, the only time you'd have to make any such pledge is when you join the military, then you have to take an oath to protect the reigning sovereign, his or her heirs and so-on. At least by then, you are generally old enough to have some grasp of the meaning and implications of what you are saying though.

 

To get kids to recite it in schools, I dunno. Feels a bit not-quite-right. Didn't they have similar 'pledgings' every morning in schools and workplaces in China and the Soviet Union?

[swansont]

I think the "indoctrination" qualm is an understandable one, but how many people do you (any of us) know who are mindless automatons because they recited the Pledge of Allegiance in school? Maybe we should look on it as part of the learning experience. After all, reciting the Pledge doesn't seem to have stopped a great number of people from joining the anti-war movement.

 

 

It's true that there isn't any follow-through on it. Probably because if they tried, and made adults do it, there are enough that just wouldn't stand for it, and it would be found to violate our first-amendment rights.

[Pangloss]

Thank you. 'Indoctrination'' date=' that's the word I was looking for (couldn't think of it before ).

 

In the UK, the only time you'd have to make any such pledge is when you join the military, then you have to take an oath to protect the reigning sovereign, his or her heirs and so-on. At least by then, you are generally old enough to have some grasp of the meaning and implications of what you are saying though.

 

To get kids to recite it in schools, I dunno. Feels a bit not-quite-right. Didn't they have similar 'pledgings' every morning in schools and workplaces in China and the Soviet Union?[/quote']

 

Sure, and the western world used an almost communistic approach to government control over the economy for decades. So what? The end result has clearly not been a mindless hoarde of automatons, ready to do the government's bidding without question?

 

I don't think England is any stranger to patriotic traditions, by the way.

[Mokele]

Couldn't one also argue that having a pledge recited day after day by thousands of kids who don't know (or care) what it really means, and are doing so purely because that's just what you do in school, cheapens the pledge and erodes the true meaning and feeling behind it until it's just another mindless recitation?

 

Mokele

[alibabba]

not true. we also are forced to have a "moment of silence" too, by law

 

The law forbids anyone from forcing a student to recite the pledge of allegience.

 

As to a moment of silence, I have never heard of a law that requires that.

 

Cite?

[alibabba]

I thought it was both? That "under god, indivisble" was one and just "under god" was another way. I don't remember...

 

No, it used to be "one nation indivisable" and then the words "under God" were added to make "one nation, under God, indivisable,........"

[alibabba]

In the UK' date=' the only time you'd have to make any such pledge is when you join the military, then you have to take an oath to protect the reigning sovereign, his or her heirs and so-on. At least by then, you are generally old enough to have some grasp of the meaning and implications of what you are saying though.

 

To get kids to recite it in schools, I dunno. Feels a bit not-quite-right. Didn't they have similar 'pledgings' every morning in schools and workplaces in China and the Soviet Union?[/quote']

 

The point is that kids in the US do not have to recite the pledge. If they don't want to, they have every right to refuse it, whether it contains the "G" word, or not.

 

And I will just be damned if I can see how a citizen of a country that makes a soldier swear allegience to a god damned king or queen can have the balls to say that a voluntary pledge to one's country is somehow "weird".

[AzurePhoenix]

The point is that kids in the US do not have[/b'] to recite the pledge. If they don't want to, they have every right to refuse it, whether it contains the "G" word, or not.

Although that's true, young children, in my school district at least, are often led to believe that they must. Up through middle school, teachers drove it into our heads that it was school policy that the pledge must be recited in full, and I'm sure most of them believed it; even detentions were handed out. Later in highschool, there were teachers who didn't care if anyone even stood for the pledge, but there were others who would force anyone who refused to achnowledge it to leave the classroom.

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

The law forbids anyone from forcing a student to recite the pledge of allegience.

 

As to a moment of silence' date=' I have never heard of a law that requires that.

 

Cite?[/quote']

Texas law.

 

http://www.dallaspeacecenter.org/pledgelaweng.htm

[john5746]

Although that's true, young children, in my school district at least, are often led to believe that they must. Up through middle school, teachers drove it into our heads that it was school policy that the pledge must be recited in full, and I'm sure most of them believed it; even detentions were handed out. Later in highschool, there were teachers who didn't care if anyone even stood for the pledge, but there were others who would force anyone who refused to achnowledge it to leave the classroom.

 

Yeah, and on top of that, they have to do homework, study and pass tests. Then, when they grow up, they have to get a job and follow rules at work. Man, it sucks doing things you don't want to do.

[AzurePhoenix]

Yeah, and on top of that, they have to do homework, study and pass tests. Then, when they grow up, they have to get a job and follow rules at work. Man, it sucks doing things you don't want to do.

Wow, you really know how to make yourself look like a trolling idiot, don't you? Unless you actually are some kind of a moron, which I doubt, you full well understand the difference between an unneccessary tradition and all of that other stuff. Forcing someone to pledge their allegiance is making them state a belief that they may not have. Should someone who has no love for this country, or any other for that matter, be forced to feign respect for it? Doesn't that just demean the pledge for those who mean what they say?

 

*And I say that if you don't want to deal with school, homework, work, etc, that's fine, but you should damn well be ready to face up to the consequences of oyur stupidity. Mindlessly repeating a forced-mantra in no way enriches my life, adds to my knowledge, or gives me the experience needed to function.*

[john5746]

Wow' date=' you really know how to make yourself look like a trolling idiot, don't you? Unless you actually are some kind of a moron, which I doubt, you full well understand the difference between an unneccessary tradition and all of that other stuff. Forcing someone to pledge their allegiance is making them state a belief that they may not have. Should someone who has no love for this country, or any other for that matter, be forced to feign respect for it? Doesn't that just demean the pledge for those who mean what they say?

 

*[i']And I say that if you don't want to deal with school, homework, work, etc, that's fine, but you should damn well be ready to face up to the consequences of oyur stupidity. Mindlessly repeating a forced-mantra in no way enriches my life, adds to my knowledge, or gives me the experience needed to function.[/i]*

 

I guess I am a moron. I think the flag stands for my fellow citizens who have sacrificed to make my life here in the US a good one. Not just lives, but tax dollars, etc. The least someone can do is recite a pledge. If you don't love or respect someone, you shouldn't depend on them for security and other things.

 

Certain basics, while simple, are a foundation to society. Respect for fellow citizens and one's community and country are one basic foundation. Reciting a pledge doesn't instill that, I know but it certainly doesn't hurt. If someone is offended by such a thing, they are going to find themselves offended very often. Tolerance is a good thing to learn early on. Tolerance for society's rules and for people who may not follow them.

 

So, if someone is offended by Christmas, Halloween, Easter, etc. don't expect everyone else to bend over backward to accomodate your position.

[AzurePhoenix]

I guess I am a moron. I think the flag stands for my fellow citizens who have sacrificed to make my life here in the US a good one. Not just lives, but tax dollars, etc. The least[/i'] someone can do is recite a pledge. If you don't love or respect someone, you shouldn't depend on them for security and other things.

You think a silly jumble of words indicates respect? I respect any man or woman who died to protect their ideals, from any nation. But I know I respect them, I do thank them, but I will not recite a silly pledge that doesn't even acknowledge their existence. Nor will I recite a pledge stating what I do not fully believe.

Certain basics, while simple, are a foundation to society. Respect for fellow citizens and one's community and country are one basic foundation.

The pledge metions none of these things, none of these people. More than anything else it addresses the doctrine of the government itself, and perhaps that alone.

 

If someone is offended by such a thing, they are going to find themselves offended very often. Tolerance is a good thing to learn early on. Tolerance for society's rules and for people who may not follow them.

I agree entirely. I wouldn't care if schools had a five minute period in which kids could pledge, perform ritual yoga, pray to Allah or whatever, but making others participate in a ritual they don't believe in is plain wrong.

 

So, if someone is offended by Christmas, Halloween, Easter, etc. don't expect everyone else to bend over backward to accomodate your position.

Again, celebrate whatever you want, I'll put up whatever easter decorations I want, they can play whatever christmas music they want. My issue is with being forced to actively recognize such things yourself.

[Mokele]

If you don't love or respect someone, you shouldn't depend on them for security and other things.

 

The problem is, what about someone who doesn't love or respect the US, yet lacks the means to sever that dependence (for instance, given the context of this discussion, a kid who is still under his parent's control and therefore cannot move away or otherwise sever said bond for legal and practical reasons)?

 

Also, some individuals (of certain religions, iirc) cannot take oaths and make pledges to any power other than god directly, so requirement to take the pledge would violate their 1st ammendment rights.

 

Plus, on a less legal note, I think pledges and oaths should be taken more seriously than the US pledge currently is. Perhaps some non-oath alternative until kids are old enough to make an informed decision? But that's just me, I don't like swearing to something unless I know damn well what it is.

 

Mokele