Severian Posted September 20, 2005 Posted September 20, 2005 Just another example of intolerant atheists....
Hellbender Posted September 20, 2005 Posted September 20, 2005 Just another example of intolerant atheists.... And making students pledge allegiance to a god they may not believe in is being intolerant towards atheists.
Cathy Pa Posted September 20, 2005 Posted September 20, 2005 And making students pledge allegiance to a god they may not believe in is being intolerant towards[/i'] atheists. But, as I understand it, nobody is making anybody recite the pledge.
Severian Posted September 20, 2005 Posted September 20, 2005 And making students pledge allegiance to a god they may not believe in is being intolerant towards[/i'] atheists. They are not pledging allegience to God. They are pledging allegience to the US state.
bascule Posted September 20, 2005 Posted September 20, 2005 Just another example of intolerant atheists.... Guess SCOTUS is full of intolerant atheists too eh: “The establishment of religion clause means at least this: Neither a state nor the federal government may set up a church. Neither can pass laws that aid one religion' date=' aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or [b']force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion[/b]. Neither a state or the federal government may, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa. In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect 'a wall of separation between church and state.'"
Severian Posted September 20, 2005 Posted September 20, 2005 Well, SCOTUS certainly is, but that aside, no-one is being forced to profess a belief in God. The objection was that anyone who opts out of the pledge would feel excluded, and therefore it should not be done. Well, boo-hoo, can't have anyone feeling excluded, can we? That would be unconstitutional!
Hellbender Posted September 20, 2005 Posted September 20, 2005 Well, boo-hoo, can't have anyone feeling excluded, can we? That would be unconstitutional! In other words, Christians get their way no matter what, everyone else, well who cares about them, right? Thats real insensitive, not caring about kids who feel left out so you all can say "under god" every morning. Give me a break.
Bettina Posted September 20, 2005 Posted September 20, 2005 I've been reading this thread right along, and I'm surprised at how many of you don't respect the country you live in. What a sad mindset that is, but as for me, I make sure our flag flys in front of my house every day and I'm proud and thankful for the soldiers who died for it. You can write in all your petty little arguments about why you don't like this country, but I'll take being a "moron" like john5746 any day, and I do make the silent pledge in school. I may not believe in god, but I believe in me. My dad says "you don't like it here, then leave". (sorry) Bettina
Hellbender Posted September 20, 2005 Posted September 20, 2005 My dad says "you don't like it here, then leave". (sorry) Thats the thing- I do like it here, very much. Vigilance is everyone's duty. The day I lose the right to critique the government and its policies, is the day I stop liking this country, and leave. I have no problem saying the pledge. But state endorsement of a particular religion goes against what I believe in.
Hellbender Posted September 20, 2005 Posted September 20, 2005 But, as I understand it, nobody is making[/b'] anybody recite the pledge. You wouldn't happen to be another syntax252 incarnation, would you?
Severian Posted September 21, 2005 Posted September 21, 2005 My dad says "you don't like it here' date=' then leave". (sorry) [/quote'] That's a really crap attitude Bettina. Would you have said that to the black community in the 50s?
Bettina Posted September 21, 2005 Posted September 21, 2005 That's a really crap attitude Bettina. Would you have said that to the black community in the 50s? I didn't say it. My dad did as he mentioned the hippy years, the 70's, burning the flag, what they did to the vietnam veterans, etc. He also has a big dislike for flag burners or those muslims who dislike us. He also doesn't like our president. What attitude do you think I should have? Should I pledge or not? Should I show respect for my country or not? Should I display my flag or not? Bettina
AzurePhoenix Posted September 21, 2005 Posted September 21, 2005 Respect your nation how you see fit, respect it in whatever way feels true to you. But you don't have to blindly pledge respect for such things as a droning, uninspiring series of words if that kinda stuff doesn't mean anything to you. But if the pledge does it for you, so be it. The point is, think for yourself no matter what others expect of you. And for Liberty's sake, nobody should try to guilt others into demeaning their own beliefs to protect themselves from petty offense.
BobbyJoeCool Posted September 21, 2005 Posted September 21, 2005 What attitude do you think I should have? Should I pledge or not? Should I show respect for my country or not? Should I display my flag or not? Those are all your choice. As everyone else has the same choice. This is the land of the "free." If someone wants to say "one nation, under God" go right ahead. If they don't want to say it, that also if fine. This nations main doctrine is that you may choose to do (or not do) things. Some of those things have consequences. Saying the pledge is, and always was OPTIONAL! No one is making anyone say anything. Does not pledging my alegance to my country mean I don't respect it, or the people who fight to protect it? NO. I love this country! But I refuse to pledge alegance to it. It's a personal choice. I pledge my alegance to no one except myself. As long as this country is protecting my interests, I'll "fight" to protect it. But, to me, pledging alegance is a bit much.
john5746 Posted September 21, 2005 Posted September 21, 2005 I didn't say it. My dad did as he mentioned the hippy years' date=' the 70's, burning the flag, what they did to the vietnam veterans, etc. He also has a big dislike for flag burners or those muslims who dislike us. He also doesn't like our president. What attitude do you think I should have? Should I pledge or not? Should I show respect for my country or not? Should I display my flag or not? Bettina[/quote'] My Dad is almost the same way. Something about going to war really galvinizes a man's attitude. Luckily, I don't understand it. As others have said, you are free to do as you wish, but I draw the line at hating your country. You can hate current administrations and what they do, but to hate what the country is based on, I cannot tolerate that. If you don't recite the pledge, that doesn't mean you hate your country of course, but to expect EVERYONE else not to say it so as not to risk offending yourself would be a very selfish act IMO.
AzurePhoenix Posted September 21, 2005 Posted September 21, 2005 i don't think anyone is asking to make everyone stop, or would even wish it if tehy had that choice. They/we just don't want to be forced to do so ourselves against our own values
john5746 Posted September 21, 2005 Posted September 21, 2005 Thats the thing- I do[/i'] like it here, very much. Vigilance is everyone's duty. The day I lose the right to critique the government and its policies, is the day I stop liking this country, and leave. I have no problem saying the pledge. But state endorsement of a particular religion goes against what I believe in. God means many things to many people. It isn't a particular religion. I agree that it doesn't need to be in there, but I am not offended by it. I think we tend to place the blame for the emotions we feel to much on external forces, when in reality they can be controlled internally. In other words, don't sweat the small stuff!
john5746 Posted September 21, 2005 Posted September 21, 2005 i don't think anyone is asking to make everyone stop, or would even wish it if tehy had that choice. They/we just don't want to be forced to do so ourselves against our own values Well, I guess if someone feels that strongly, they shouldn't have to do it. I guess I just don't see how anyone would have such strong feelings against it. I disagree more with the method than not saying the pledge. I know I wouldn't want my parents to get involved or make a scene if I didn't want to say it. Again, not sweating the small stuff.
j_p Posted September 21, 2005 Posted September 21, 2005 I think the "indoctrination" qualm is an understandable one, but how many people do you (any of us) know who are mindless automatons because they recited the Pledge of Allegiance in school? Maybe we should look on it as part of the learning experience. After all, reciting the Pledge doesn't seem to have stopped a great number of people from joining the anti-war movement. Prehaps it led them to the anti-war movement.
AzurePhoenix Posted September 21, 2005 Posted September 21, 2005 Well, I guess if someone feels that strongly, they shouldn't have to do it. I guess I just don't see how anyone would have such strong feelings against it. I disagree more with the method than not saying the pledge. I know I wouldn't want my parents to get involved or make a scene if I didn't want to say it. Again, not sweating the small stuff. Except that it's not just small stuff to some people. Just like the Aztecs thought human sacrifice was as normal as breakfast. You know what I mean? Ideals are as diverse as the people who hold them. Someone might have strong feeling against it because to them it's a stupid, demeaning waste of time, or that it focuses entirely on ideals they don't stand for. Those can be very major deals to someone.
Cathy Pa Posted September 21, 2005 Posted September 21, 2005 You wouldn't happen to be another syntax252 incarnation, would you? Syntax252? Who is this Syntax252? He seems to have made quite an impression around here. Did he wear a mask and leave a silver bullet with someone?
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