Why we like living.?

[Luminous]

Why is it that we as humans can go about our day to day lives without ever getting sad or wondering what the point is? I mean if you follow a religion they ok, i can understand that, but for the rest of us intelligent people what is the point? One day, we WILL grow old, and our entire conscious thought will die out making anything we ever did, felt, or thought, practically obsolete, except to those who are left behind to read it, who will also die anyways. I think there is something in the brain that makes people just over look all of this, and want to continue living. Anyone else think about this?

[ydoaPs]

Why is it that we as humans can go about our day to day lives without ever getting sad or wondering what the point is?

never met a teenage girl, eh?

[Bio-Hazard]

never met a teenage girl, eh?

 

Smart ass.

 

Everybody's brain is different and their environments also. it's about where a person is. Depending on where you live, how people act towards you, and how society is at the time will usually effect who you are and how you percieve the world.

 

I'm sure most people will understand the point of death unless of course it is sheided from their eyes by society. In that case you will have a psychological behavior where you don't understand that death exists. However, biologically you may notice that you get stronger and weaker throughout life.

 

I believe that people either walk through life blindly, are on drugs already, or don't talk about it.

 

Out of sight, out of mind.

 

There is also the idea that you have a certain type of biological setting where your emotions are preset. If you never take time to understand yourself and learn about how you think and who you are, your psychobiological settings will take course wherever the wind takes them.

 

This is where changing how you think can change how you feel.

 

I'm just waiting around until I collect enough knowledge to blow up the world. Then again, maybe people will do that themselves. Muah ha ha ha ha ha ha.

 

However if you want my personal opinion on death. If people right now, got off their lazy butts and went all out learning science. We could find a way to go against death and become somewhat immortal. However, we couldn't stay on Earth if people were to become immortals. Resources would be used up and more than likely you will be killed by nature than a human. I think about 2,000,000 people or more working towards the same goal would boost things tremendously. Imagine this whole forum being packed with a million scientists. It would be crazy yet, almost any problem another scientist is having could be answered and a complete technological advancement would happen. Which is happening more and more with forums. But, people think I'm crazy.

[starbug1]

Anyone else think about this?

 

Who doesn't?

I don't believe that NO ONE doesn't question it, you cant' see the people that do because they are at a desk somewhere trying to figure it out. They aren't the masses on the streets or in schools. This is just such a complicated matter that the people who consider it and can't deal with it, end up going crazy. But you're right, we humans have a desire to only live for the now. Satisfying all of our pleasures. There have been very few people to give up their touch with feeling and reality for a better purpose. except the Buddists. but what do they do for the betterment of society?

 

 

We do actually progress, as humans. That we die doesn't mean we don't learn from it. Look how advanced civilization has become. On the whole it is an impatiently slow process-to a single person. But then again people have the tendency to believe in oneness, which brings about selfishness and the love for material things. It is much harder to create a life devoted to work, unless you love not having any fun. Not to say work isn't any fun, but it's a question you can't answer, which leads to the question of god and an afterlife--a much more complicated subject.

 

To the people who don't question why we live, it may be that they are looking forward to an afterlife, or believe that god has a purpose for them. This among others are the most common and which also divert the attention of most people from that impossible stymie of a question, "Why am I here." It's one of the reasons religion is here in the first place.

 

It's much easier to forget about why we die, and continue to learn and be intelligent. Then when you die, you can say, "Crap, why did I never think about this! Oh well, at least I didn't waste time trying to find an answer that isn't there. I'll be dead in two minutes anyway." It only sucks for those that two minutes because only then do you realise that no one will remember you (excepting your immediate family) and that you really didn't anything to make a difference or something to be proud of, or even anything worthy of life to begin with. You merely lived.

 

So basically it boils down to faith or feeling content with how many things you have seen in your LONG life. Man, how our brains screw with us.

[Xyph]

We like living because it's evolutionarily advantageous to like living, just as it is to accompany such with acceptance of death.

[starbug1]

We like living because it's evolutionarily advantageous to like living, just as it is to accompany such with acceptance of death.

 

True, humans will do almost anything to stay alive, we try with more determinism than any other animal in a life-threatening situation

 

But what can you say for the chronically depressed?

With that evolutionary advantage, I believe natural selection and superiority have also given us more problems of live. Naturally, though, we are born to accept life and death.

[Xyph]

I think most problems with depression probably arise from the fact that society at the moment likes to - for the most part, it seems to me - treat death as an uncomfortable inconvenience best ignored, rather than a fact of life, which results in some being unable to deal with the realisation that it will come. I don't think some religions are doing too much to help the matter, either, since the advent of science has allowed existence to come under more direct scrutiny, and some can be left with a feeling of hopelessness in the absence of religious comfort in the same way that some are left with hopelessness in the absence of the reassurance of society.

 

I'm no psychologist, though, so I dunno, I could be wrong.

[ashennell]

True, humans will do almost anything to stay alive, we try with more determinism than any other animal in a life-threatening situation

 

Why do you think this? we certainly have a wider range of behaviour we can use to avoid death but does this mean we are more determined?

 

But what can you say for the chronically depressed?

 

I think the problem is that we did not evolve in environment that we are now expected to succed in. Our stressors are very different from our ancestors.

[imasmartgirl]

I'm just glad i get to be apart of something as great as life Its way better than being eternal nothingness.

[LucidDreamer]

I'm just glad i get to be apart of something as great as life Its way better than being eternal nothingness.

You're a smart girl.

[starbug1]

Why do you think this? we certainly have a wider range of behaviour we can use to avoid death but does this mean we are more determined?

 

 

think of any survival movie (i know there are dozens), and therein lies your answer. Read any book by a wilderness survivor. (but for the love of merlin, don't bring up Survivor or bad horror movies)

 

 

When forced into the worst of hardships or solitude (if you are of a healthy mind) you will use common sense of your surroundings to figure out how to stay alive. All else is forgotten but to try to stay alive. This is a trait seen in animals, but not as severely. We are capable of certain complex tasks, we can think, we can use our hands, all of that. Your body will endure great amounts of pain to stay alive. (kinda like that guy who cut his arm off in the Utah canyons) It's that same mechanism that drives hormones in your body to acquire superhuman feats of strenght to save another life. Oh, great example, the movie Cast Away. We will even keep ourselves sane be making a non-sentient being, i.e. a volleyball, into the greatest and most loved companion. Let's see an animal do that. Even our closest ancestors, the primate, don't show such determinitsm traits such as this.

 

Basically, you can literally exhaust, damage, injure your body into near-death conditions just to stay alive. Now, c'mon, and you really think we don't take extreme measures to stay alive. Ok. the one case I can think of that disproves this is in war-time, killing yourself to prevent being tortured by the enemy. Cannibalism is another sticky area. Some will do it to stay alive(including primates and several other animals). But we choose. When one is crazed beyond rational thought, cannibalism is likely. Those with stronger constitutions will die sooner. (Although I'd like to think I would never eat another human being, I have never gone without food for a month ) Am I clear on this or are we still nonchalant about death. "eh, who the hell cares, I really don't want to live and

get to be apart of something as great as life Its way better than being eternal nothingness.

 

 

Here, a great story by Richard Connell, maybe you've heard of it, or even seen it... http://www.classicshorts.com/stories/danger.html

 

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A7180-2003May2?language=printer

Mental fortitude! and his book... http://print.google.com/print?id=EfO4fdFWERgC&pg=PR4&lpg=PR4&dq=between+a+rock+and+a+hard+place&prev=http://print.google.com/print%3Fq%3Dbetween%2Ba%2Brock%2Band%2Ba%2Bhard%2Bplace%26oi%3Dprint&sig=DJtEFQUdFHgErAs-75vbiUNvAJk

 

 

And believe me, there are plenty and plenty more survival stories and the unbelievable feats of human determinism and strength of mind and body, all just to live this wonderful life; and more than any animal I know of. We beat them in brain mass, language, hobbies,..., and now SURVIVAL! Google it, you'll see.

[ashennell]

Firstly, I should mention that it is accepted that this reply is annoyingly augumentative and full of nit-picking. One thing, as humans, that we do NOT share with animals is our determination to win an arguement

 

think of any survival movie (i know there are dozens), and therein lies your answer. Read any book by a wilderness survivor. (but for the love of merlin, don't bring up Survivor or bad horror movies)

 

I'm sure that there have been many instances where an animal has had to work very hard to survive and accomplished some comparatively amazing feats. Afterall, they live in the "wilderness" every day. Strangely they never choose to publish their experiences.

 

(In humans)All else is forgotten but to try to stay alive. This is a trait seen in animals, but not as severely.

 

I think the problem here is that animals don't really have other things to forget about. SO I would say that this trait is not really seen at all in animals. But surely if a variant of a species evolved that is prepared to try harder or be more determined to survive then it would quickly dominate the population.

 

The concept of "determination" is in a sense a very human thing. If we talk about survival instinct then I think there is no different between humans and animals. The difference is that we have a more complex world model. We can often predict danger a long time in advance. So, yes, working to avoid death when you are in no immediate danger is mainly a human characterisitic. But this is due to animals ignorance of possible dangers and not their lack of a love for life.

 

We will even keep ourselves sane be making a non-sentient being, i.e. a volleyball, into the greatest and most loved companion. Let's see an animal do that.

 

If animals had the same need for social interaction as we do then perhaps they would. I'm not sure to what extent lonely animals risk going insane.

 

(humans take) extreme measures to stay alive.Ok. the one case I can think of that disproves this is in war-time, killing yourself to prevent being tortured by the enemy. Cannibalism is another sticky area.

 

Another topical example: Suicide bombers. As a species I think we show a the greatest ability to actually overcome our survival instinct. I think most animals would only risk their life for their offspring (this is a simplification- altruism and natural selection is complex I think). This results from our ability to have a complex understand of our environment and to hold complex beliefs. The same reason why we may appear to be more determined.

 

In summmary. Clearly the way we percieve threats differs from other speicies. The fact the our brains allow us to consider things that might happen (to worry) and to think about other things (our family or a nice hot up of coffee) means that we must be focused on survival when we find ourselves floating in the middle atlantic ocean.

 

However, the idea that in general animals just dont work as hard as possible with the abilities that they have to avoid death dosn't seem to make evolutional sense.

 

I hope it's OK to shorten the quotes as I have done in this reply.

[The Peon]

Sexual expectations? I would think a major component to wanting to live besides the basics like sex, would be our extreme exploratory nature. Most people who are depressed have stagnated mentally in some way. The older I get the more I realize I know less and less and so much more can be learned. The older I get I am getting more and more excited about life. Thats just me though... guess I never lost my childlike sense of wonderment.

[bascule]

Why is it that we as humans can go about our day to day lives without ever getting sad or wondering what the point is?

 

A lot of people do feel that way. However, we're informavores constantly in pursuit of novelty, and as long as we have novelty to experience, I think we're relatively content.

[starbug1]

Firstly, I should mention that it is accepted that this reply is annoyingly augumentative and full of nit-picking. One thing, as humans, that we do NOT share with animals is our determination to win an arguement

 

Nit-picking? What are you doing.

 

 

I'm sure that there have been many instances where an animal has had to work very hard to survive and accomplished some comparatively amazing feats. Afterall, they live in the "wilderness" every day. Strangely they never choose to publish their experiences.

 

I believe you, animals work very hard to stay alive and do accomplish comparatively amazing feats, but still why wouldn't they publish their experiences? How could they just sit on untold amazing stories?

 

 

But surely if a variant of a species evolved that is prepared to try harder or be more determined to survive then it would quickly dominate the population.

 

 

Exactly why we are at the top of the food chain, and are proof of natural selection. Are you backing your story or my story here?

 

 

So, yes, working to avoid death when you are in no immediate danger is mainly a human characterisitic. But this is due to animals ignorance of possible dangers

 

 

Precisely. We have more complex brains; therefore, more determinism to live.

 

not their lack of a love for life.

 

Is this even relevant? Can animals have a love for life, when there are only a select few species that have this feelings?

 

Another topical example: Suicide bombers. As a species I think we show a the greatest ability to actually overcome our survival instinct. I think most animals would only risk their life for their offspring (this is a simplification- altruism and natural selection is complex I think). This results from our ability to have a complex understand of our environment and to hold complex beliefs. The same reason why we may appear to be more determined.

 

Pertinence!!!! When does this enter into the question of determinism in animals and humans to stay alive? Suicide bombers are the equivalent of dying for a cause. They don't think there is a more noble way of dying and for them, if it helps me reach salvation, then becoming a suicide bomber is better than life. This has nothing to do saving your life in imminent death situations.

 

 

Okay, I am done quoting, but as I see it there is no gain on either side of this argument, and you are full of opinions. If you dissect some of your statements you are really proving that yes, humans do have more determinism to live. But that you can't discredit the intelligence of animals. Okay, I get it. You don't want to see logic. All you had to say was Hi, my name is ashennell, and you can't win this argument. I probably would have believed you and backed down. I'm not being offensive, I just don't think this is going anywhere.

 

[ashennell]

Hi,

 

I agree that this discussion is going nowhere. You say that you're not being offensive but accuse me of not wanting to see logic and being full of opinions. I can't see how these comments relate to the rest of the discussion or main part of your last reply.

 

You seem to have misunderstood every part of my last post, deliberately or otherwise - I don't know.

 

Maybe I should just stop but I dont like being accused of not wanting to see logic. So-

 

Quote:

But surely if a variant of a species evolved that is prepared to try harder or be more determined to survive then it would quickly dominate the population.

 

 

 

Exactly why we are at the top of the food chain, and are proof of natural selection. Are you backing your story or my story here?

 

You seem to be saying that we are at the top of the food chain because we are more determined. Assuming that we are at the top of the food chain then our ability to learn, use language and our opposable thumbs put us there. If motivation is all you need then why would any species have less than the maxmimum possible? My point was that evolution should select for determination to survive in all species.

 

Non of any of this is a proof of natural selection - I don't understand what you mean here.

 

 

Precisely. We have more complex brains; therefore, more determinism to live.

 

Your arguement here is, as a far I can tell, that determination or will to survive is proportional to intelligence.I am saying is that the instinctual drive is similar across species - i.e. the determination. Intelligence determines which dangers we are aware of but not how hard we try to avoid them. So no not "precisely" these things are completely different.

 

Pertinence!!!! When does this enter into the question of determinism in animals and humans to stay alive? Suicide bombers are the equivalent of dying for a cause. They don't think there is a more noble way of dying and for them, if it helps me reach salvation, then becoming a suicide bomber is better than life. This has nothing to do saving your life in imminent death situations.

 

Like you say - the suicide bomber has a belief that becoming a martyr is better than life. I was using this as an example (as I stated) of humans ability to ignore their survival instinct (determination to survive). My point - our "complex brains" allow us to hold complex religeous beliefs that enable us to be more determined to die than to live. The nobility of their actions is not the important factor in this arguement.

 

Anyway. If you think that someone is completely avoiding reason then I would guess it is more likely that you just don't understand what they are saying. Secondly, perhaps I have some opinions - this is not a discussion where it would be easy to provide references. Are opinions not allowed in a discussion forum?

 

By the way 'determinism' is a philosophical doctrine that states that every act and decision is the inevitable consequence of its antecedants. I assume, therefore, that you mean 'determination'. (If you really do mean determinism then no wonder were not getting anywhere)

[starbug1]

Like you say - the suicide bomber has a belief that becoming a martyr is better than life. I was using this as an example (as I stated) of humans ability to ignore their survival instinct (determination to survive). My point - our "complex brains" allow us to hold complex religeous beliefs that enable us to be more determined to die than to live. The nobility of their actions is not the important factor in this arguement.

 

We agree on something at least.

 

You seem to be saying that we are at the top of the food chain because we are more determined. Assuming that we are at the top of the food chain then our ability to learn, use language and our opposable thumbs put us there. If motivation is all you need then why would any species have less than the maxmimum possible? My point was that evolution should select for determination to survive in all species.

 

I'm saying that natural selection is the process in which the stronger--more intelligent, cabable, what have you--survive. I believe it has been stated as "survival of the fittest." And we are more determined in a way because we haven't fallen behind in our superiority in a sense. The more determined of a species to survive is because it is a fight of populations. All of us (animals) can't live. Therefore, determination and brought us to the top. But yes, evolution selects determination in a species. All species living are proof of that.

 

 

 

Precisely. We have more complex brains; therefore, more determinism to live.

 

 

Your arguement here is, as a far I can tell, that determination or will to survive is proportional to intelligence.I am saying is that the instinctual drive is similar across species - i.e. the determination. Intelligence determines which dangers we are aware of but not how hard we try to avoid them. So no not "precisely" these things are completely different.

 

Determinism is similar to intelligence level a. because humans invented that philosophy and b. because we understand this premise. Instinctual drive is always present in every species; however, as far as I know, humans can choose to ignore them or even stregthen them. This ties in with that whole suicidal bomber example.

 

 

Anyway. If you think that someone is completely avoiding reason then I would guess it is more likely that you just don't understand what they are saying

 

Believe me, I know what you are saying, but your replies completely circumvent mine. The same thing you think I am doing. You have reason, I have reason but...

Secondly, perhaps I have some opinions - this is not a discussion where it would be easy to provide references. Are opinions not allowed in a discussion forum?

BINGO! opinions. You have opinions. I am trying to back up evident of "Why we like living," with proven evidence of our determinism and determination. I have my opinions too, but for some reason you think they are more valid than facts.

 

I'll clear two things up: One, determination is strong in both humans and animals. Determinism is avoidable in humans; we have free-will, humans don't always have determinism. Animals know nothing other than determinism, and so they accept it without any passion (partly because they are not as complex as humans.)

Two, that humans have, on many occasions, shown non-animalian survival traits is proof of a more capable determination. We have hope, we can rely on religion, we can rely on others, we can think, we can problem solve, we can exert our right not to survive, we can drive ourselves to survive by any means possible. Now, you may argue that an animal would have the same traits if he were able, and because they don't doesn't mean they have any less determination to live. That's just it. Because we have evolved into something more capable, more efficient, more complex, this also heightens our determination, and our awareness of determinism as well as many other things.

 

Can we state it simply that humans and animals both love to live and are determined to keep it that way? Though that humans are above animals in many aspects means that we are more aware, more knowledgable about our choices in life, and ultimately death? That humans can think for ourselves, giving us the right to try harder, or less, or not at all? Show me this in an animal. (Keeping in mind that some of these traits have been shown in primates)

 

 

Precisely. We have more complex brains; therefore, more determinism to live.

 

I'll admit, I did typo here. Determinism was supposed to be determination.

 

I agree that this discussion is going nowhere

 

We've proved that wrong! and I'm sorry if I offended you and called you blind to logic. And no, my mother did not tell me to apologize.

 

[ashennell]

Maybe I should get back on topic;-

 

Why is it that we as humans can go about our day to day lives without ever getting sad or wondering what the point is?

 

I think there is something in the brain that makes people just over look all of this, and want to continue living. Anyone else think about this?

 

I agree, there is something in the brain that makes us overlook the pointlessness of it all. Our brains evolved as a solution to keeping us alive as best as possible rather than as a a general 'computer-like' reasoning machine. We can reason that this is all pointless but that wont stop a good joke from being funny or a car accident from scaring us and wanted to stay alive etc,etc. So I think our emotions are the part of our mind that prevents this from occuring.

 

I am an atheist and therefore share this view that at the end there will be nothing. Does this mean that life is pointless? No, I think that it just means that the point is not at the end. (yes lovebug, another opinion )

[Xyph]

The point is to survive and evolve, both individually and as a species. We are, ultimately, just another function of the universe and just as much a natural phenomenon as planets and stars, after all, and the function of biological life is to survive and evolve - which makes that the point of our existence.

[starbug1]

I believe that some people can't comprehend what life is really about. On the other hand, I also believe some people are so obsessed with death they are afraid of virtually everything. i.e. phobias, and lots of them. And further still, exceptance.

 

This diversity creates equilibrium in population. I, too, think that we have some inhibiting function that takes us away from the real question, "what is life?" One can think about it for an hour, a day, or a week, and then conclude that it was a good brain teaser, but I want I vacation. Without fun and periods "laid back" brain time (this doesn't mean to stop thinking altogether) one would go crazy (and some have.)

 

I can relate this "something in our brain" to the book Battlefield Earth, by L. Ron Hubbard. The Psychlos are implanted with a nerve/synapse relay inside their brains. This is done at birth, so none of them realize it. The whole gist is to engage certain dramatic brain signals according to language response. If one speaks of anything threatening to the Psychlos, such as Psychlo math or weapons, the switch kicks on and sends the victim into a coma. Other reactions include suicide and violence. Probably not the case with us humans, but interesting to think about. What if?

[senexa]

Perhaps the point for human beings is in the wondering itself? I suspect that this increases with age, finally becoming the central theme of the final stages of old age. Personally, I think it is preparation for the next journey, like study for some cosmic SAT.

 

Psychologically, it is the effort to understand your place in the world at large and within your own sphere in particular; thereby giving you a firmer footing for the living of your own life, which seems essential to mental health.

 

I wonder, though, about the society we live it that sees such normal emotions of sadness, depression, melancholy or death thoughts as abnormal. We deny these emotions so strongly (mostly to enable the pharmaceutical companies to sell more product) that we place great art, music, philosophy and social growth in danger of extinction.

 

There's a great article in The Atlantic this month on Lincoln's clinical depression and how it shaped his thought and abilities to enable greatness.

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/prem/200510/lincolns-clinical-depression