Schools treating parents as customers

[Phi for All]

1 hour ago, Erina said:

@Phi for All: The state sector is by no means flourishing compared to those variants found in the fee paying sector, otherwise nobody would pay the prices they charge.

Where this is true, it's usually easy to see the influence of capitalist politics on the funding of public institutions. Defund the system, cap teacher pay, make the whole system look bad and then point to how the state sector is by no means flourishing, which makes the argument of privatization look more appealing, when all it can really do is cost more to teach the same things.

1 hour ago, Erina said:

The issue is, is it not, that teachers right now are protesting for greater pay, why then does the subject not come down to the bottom line ?

Teacher compensation shouldn't be assessed on a bottom-line basis. They're protesting now because we've been trying to keep their pay low for decades as part of a more business-like, bottom-line strategy. You're arguing that they should embrace the very tactics that keep some of them working two jobs. 

1 hour ago, Erina said:

Shareholder's chief aims are to get a return on their investment, but that is a purely financial arrangement, so the similarity ends there. The return on investment is a product fit for the jobs market in this instance.

I don't want the education of my country's children to be treated as a financial arrangement, or an investment in a product, or as a means to make them fit into the jobs market. It seems pretty clear that diversity and adaptability help all life forms on this planet. Our educational system should reflect that, rather than trying to develop identical little human widgets to make training them easier and more profitable. 

[StringJunky]

8 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

Where this is true, it's usually easy to see the influence of capitalist politics on the funding of public institutions. Defund the system, cap teacher pay, make the whole system look bad and then point to how the state sector is by no means flourishing, which makes the argument of privatization look more appealing, when all it can really do is cost more to teach the same things.

This cartoon illustrates that MO quite well:

11 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

 It seems pretty clear that diversity and adaptability help all life forms on this planet. Our educational system should reflect that, rather than trying to develop identical little human widgets to make training them easier and more profitable. 

We need them because we don't know what we need in the future. 

[Erina]

@Phi for All: I refute that point, there is plenty of money in the state education system.

I advocate a disruptive system to the status-quo, one that would bring down the inflated cots of private and raise those in the public sector.

But more than that it would be done with no new taxes, but within the existing pot of funds. The only cost would be to be honest about what the child needs to succeed.

If your mission statement is to ignore the need for a child (that will eventually develop into an adult) to be able to provide for themselves then what hope has that form of education got compared to the system I am offering. You forget that I am not advocating a complete change, but a voluntary one. In fact, my proposal would need that opposition as a measure of difference.

So many are now without a useful skills set for the jobs available because of a lack of focus, what about those that choose otherwise ?

I am here for the system’s components to be critiqued as much as the entire idea of it.

Getting back to the index and what kind of information it would offer, I would like to know if anybody here is/had been in a position to hire a fellow teacher ?

The index would give you at a glance:

• Total time active in specific subject
• Age groups taught
• Class sizes (average/granular) by years active
• Budget per pupil
• Grades attained (average/granular)
• Failure rate (average/granular)
• Class attendance rate (average/granular)
• Class drop-out rate (average/granular)

 

I expect similar criteria to be available at present, or on request, but this system would be quicker to digest and compare with other teachers.

What kind of information am I missing to make this system more useful ?

[TheVat]

2 hours ago, iNow said:

"Don't like your education? Just move to Finland!" It's not something which either scales (there are 50 MILLION students enrolled in US public schools) nor is it an accessible option to most (who on average have less than $1000 available to use even in dire emergencies).

This is some Ayn Rand level of unrealistic fantasy silliness being shown here. 

BMTI.

And I would object to overmuch parental input (blasphemy in some circles, I know) because I don't see most parents as expert on pedagogy or what branches of human knowledge are needed for well-rounded education, or what curricula are optimal for specific trajectories in life.  I would like pedagogical experts doing this.  Just as I'd send a family member to a cancer clinic that was organized and run by oncologists and healthcare admin pros, not a random group of relatives of cancer patients.  

America already has too many ignoramuses dictating how to run things they understand very little.

 

 

Edited April 12, 2023 by TheVat

[Erina]

The system I propose doesn't exclusively give the parents complete control, as they must power share with other (albeit like-minded) parents, but also with approval of the school and its teachers; of whom would be scavenged from a free floating index, so the conditions have to be right.

Once again, what is the criteria to be met when looking for a new teacher outside of STEM subjects please.

[Phi for All]

32 minutes ago, Erina said:

@Phi for All: I refute that point, there is plenty of money in the state education system.

Looking at overall funding doesn't help you see how the budgets are being spent. Much of the education dollars misspent in the US happen at the district level, where "business" people set up deals with private industry for things like foodservice and technology and more administrative overhead. Since I've been alive, education spending has increased by more than 350%, yet more than half the funds don't actually make it to the classrooms and the results of that spending are dubious at best.

48 minutes ago, Erina said:

But more than that it would be done with no new taxes, but within the existing pot of funds. The only cost would be to be honest about what the child needs to succeed.

Ah, so you're judging what students need to learn based on your version of honesty?

51 minutes ago, Erina said:

If your mission statement is to ignore the need for a child (that will eventually develop into an adult) to be able to provide for themselves then what hope has that form of education got compared to the system I am offering. 

OK, please don't use this type of argument. It's just dumb, and insulting, and makes me think the rest of what you're saying is equally weak.

55 minutes ago, Erina said:

So many are now without a useful skills set for the jobs available because of a lack of focus, what about those that choose otherwise ?

Lack of focus on whose part? Are you judging the students this way? These are children, so any focus should probably come from professional people trained to engage focus.

I'd prefer to see a system that spent what was needed for each child to learn what they need to do what they're good at that also makes them happy. It may not take much for some, and it may take a LOT for others. Your system would ignore those who cost too much, but might have saved the world one day if they'd been given what they needed.

57 minutes ago, Erina said:

What kind of information am I missing to make this system more useful ?

A fundamental understanding of how to disseminate the accumulated knowledge humans have amassed in their various civilizations. Knowledge shouldn't be a commodity, especially not for our children. 

 

[Erina]

@Phi for All: I do appreciate your position being from the North Americas, but my focus is on the UK system and I maintain that there is sufficient funding for education.

No doubt you are right, I am not one for centralised control. Such matters would become glaringly obvious when parents forge one-to-one relationships with the schools. This is another disruptive element to the system, albeit an unforeseen one.

As you know the current budget does not stretch to all areas equally, or fully, but then most children do not need to learn everything and so those choices will be in the hands of the parents (the idea that the children are not consulted will become clear when they struggle to show enthusiasm, or keep up).

The elephant is so big now that if you can't see it then you don't want to. Giving the parents the ability to wrestle the curriculum away from certain embedded interest groups would surely leave them at a loss, but those funds would then be put to the use that the parents deem a greater imperative (and it is their money after all). You cannot ignore what is going on in Western education right now and a lot of parents are not happy about it.

Acknowledging that no two pupils are the same is a good start and I don't detect that you'd artificially burden those that can move ahead faster, simply worry about those that (by comparison) cannot. Well, that's life. In fact, that is genetics and nothing is going to alter that. The system would I suppose focus the minds of those less able to move where they can cope. It will burn some, of course, but perhaps not those that wish to participate.

Again, this is a voluntary system. But I cannot pretend it will not attract the most enthusiastic and able.

The process of selection cannot be so mysterious that it requires a God like ability to select the right person, probation if anything will atone for that. I genuinely would like to know what kind of criteria is sought after. If you're scared of this system then at least try to make it work in its embryonic state, because it will likely become dominant.

Edited April 12, 2023 by Erina

[iNow]

14 hours ago, npts2020 said:

Also, how is the USPS funded? Or is mail delivery not a public service?

Stamps, but I reckon it’s easier to measure successful delivery of a parcel than successful rearing and enablement of a child, themselves a critical piece of the societal and economic puzzle. 

[Erina]

Come on guys.

What is the present criteria for hiring a teacher (outside STEM) ?

[CharonY]

9 hours ago, Erina said:

@CharonY: I did counter this by clearly categorising pupils into those seeking tertiary level entry and those not.

Not really. You have not addressed what ultimately education should be about. You are saying that practical skills should be taught. Fine, but that is not necessarily what parents want. Right now, in the US there is a movement driven by teachers trying to dumb down students, by limiting their academic exposure to a very narrow view that is in line with their beliefs, but does not really have to have a foothold in reality. It may be something what certain parents want, but it will limit the intellectual capabilities of pupils. Moreover, parents are also likely not competent enough to determine a proper curriculum (which is one of the reasons why some of the demands are questionable).

Funding of schools in the US is kind of screwy and compared other countries show more inequity in terms of funding and access to resources. I do not see how any of the suggestions made here would improve that.

I will re-iterate that no one really knows what the "product" is supposed to be. Training folks to excel in certain types of tests is too narrow a view. Often the strength and weaknesses of a particular educational journey will only show up years later in life. It is therefore important to open up as many doors as possible for young folks, as no one can predict the path (and it is certainly not deterministic nor can we blame genes for the outcome).

At best, the system would create hyperspecialized individuals based on what their parents might have thought to be worthwhile, potentially based on their limited perspective. And I think that this is the opposite of what an effective education should be (whatever we might think of effective).

You need to have a broad basis while specialization starts later in University. I would avoid putting young folks on specific trajectories if we do not really know what would benefit them in the future. Adding random indices might provide the illusion of having some sort of objective measure, but if one is not sure what one should be measuring, it is rather useless in the end.

[Sensei]

A free of charge state school can be good or evil. Evil if it indoctrinates young people, brainwashes them, presents them with an alternative version of reality and turns them into supporters of their chosen politicians (i.e. world vision of these politicians). Mass production of slaves..

Paid school can be good or evil. Evil if it discriminates against people because the amount to be paid is too high for most people to bear.  A loan of a dozen or a hundred thousand dollars for a 25-year-old? Seriously? Mass production of slaves..

ps. Paid is not free from indoctrination (i.e., the worldview of these teachers)..

ps2. Free is not free from discrimination based on parental wealth either..

 

Edited April 13, 2023 by Sensei

[Erina]

@CharonY: I believe I have stated that children should, at that level, be equipped with the skills to find meaningful employment to give them the means to be self-sufficient. It is also paramount that the child be taught how to learn, not what to learn, so that they may continue to later in life, as we all never really stop.

Our views on the methods and content being taught parallel, but how you cannot see that those parents unhappy with this forced arrangement would not opt to split away and form a new school is beyond me. That is one of the key benefits of my proposal.

As a libertarian I have a lot more faith in folk taking decisions collectively, with unfitted access to sensible discourse, not mob rule. Imagine crafting the American Constitution today; there would be no Freedom of Speech. I have to concede however that the system is not for everybody and that is why it is voluntary. I am quite content that if granted, people will be responsible, even for their mistakes. A community like this, or any other, is fertile ground for sharing what works and what doesn't, as so many new schools will be trying different things, the risk factor must be communicated up front.

I refute your claim that the end product cannot be known, of course it can, it's what tertiary level entry requires or the jobs market i.e. being requested back by your apprentice work placement. The trouble being that too many avenues leaves children lost and fewer resources for those that they are more adept in. A child often does not know what they want, freedom can be a curse. All three parties working together to create a clear path for them to succeed is going to attract more focused parents/children and so they system will develop its culture - but it's not for all.

@Sensei: I'd rather facts over philosophy, as the system I propose already exists, in both systems. The only difference is that the parents have more control.

Once again, any input on the relevant metrics that a school looks for in a teacher, in order to make the index better, would be welcome.

[Sensei]

2 hours ago, Erina said:

@Sensei: I'd rather facts over philosophy, as the system I propose already exists, in both systems. The only difference is that the parents have more control.

What?! I am the last being in the universe who could talk about such nonsense as philosophy..

 

 

16 hours ago, Erina said:

What is the present criteria for hiring a teacher (outside STEM) ?

Seriously.. ?

Seriously deadly seriously..?

According to your ex-POTUS.. must have a gun...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43149694

 

Quote

 

"US President Donald Trump has said arming teachers could prevent school shootings like that which left 17 people dead last week in Florida.

Teachers carrying a concealed gun could end attacks "very quickly", he said.

Mr Trump floated the proposal - long-championed by the powerful NRA gun lobby - as emotional survivors of the 14 February massacre urged him to take measures to stop similar attacks."

 

 

More deadly seriously:

Quote

What is the present criteria for hiring a teacher (outside STEM) ?

In the US? Don't get shot?

 

2 hours ago, Erina said:

As a libertarian I have a lot more faith in folk taking decisions collectively,

...except the US is not the world.. what you want to talk..

 

[iNow]

3 hours ago, Erina said:

I have a lot more faith in folk taking decisions collectively, with unfitted access to sensible discourse, not mob rule.

Faith sadly fails repeatedly when compared against reality

[Erina]

Should read Unfiltered.

[Phi for All]

7 minutes ago, Erina said:

Should read Unfiltered.

I think you're mistaken in thinking that turning education into a business is "breaking all the rules", because the rule you're breaking is fairly inviolate.  For-profit businesses ALL start with the phrase, "We will make a profit by doing X". Taking the publicly-funded approach, we start with the phrase, "We will teach children what they need to succeed". Nothing is EVER going to change the fact that private schools MUST charge more for the same education because of their need for profit. 

[exchemist]

20 hours ago, Erina said:

The system I propose doesn't exclusively give the parents complete control, as they must power share with other (albeit like-minded) parents, but also with approval of the school and its teachers; of whom would be scavenged from a free floating index, so the conditions have to be right.

Once again, what is the criteria to be met when looking for a new teacher outside of STEM subjects please.

Knowing the difference between "refute", "rebut" and "disagree with", and between the singular and plural of criterion, would be a start. 😉

More seriously, surely the criteria for a new teacher are subject knowledge and evidence of the ability to teach, i.e. to motivate pupils to enjoy the subject and be able to show that they have learnt effectively, e.g. by good exam results. (Plus the usual hygiene factors of course.).

But is this what you are interested in, or is it what should be in the syllabus? From your previous posts it feels as if the latter is more what concerns you.  

 

 

 

[Sensei]

19 hours ago, Erina said:

What is the present criteria for hiring a teacher (outside STEM) ?

In a capitalist country? .... In which country?

...

In a communist country?

 

Make an non ambiguous request.. then you might be satisfied..

 

[exchemist]

On 4/12/2023 at 5:27 PM, StringJunky said:

This cartoon illustrates that MO quite well:

We need them because we don't know what we need in the future. 

Sometimes I wonder if this is the approach of the British Tory party to our National Health Service: starve it for years, demoralise the staff and then say, “Look, it doesn’t work.”

 

 

Edited April 13, 2023 by exchemist

[StringJunky]

18 minutes ago, exchemist said:

Sometimes I wonder if this is the approach of the British Tory party to our National Health Service: starve it for years, demoralise the staff and then say, “Look, it doesn’t work.”

 

 

Yes, it's a strategy used by many political groups. I think the redder Tories know they won't get away with it. A blackhole, which is the NHS, is always gagging for money.

Edited April 13, 2023 by StringJunky

[exchemist]

12 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Yes, it's a strategy used by many political groups. I think the redder Tories know they won't get away with it. A blackhole, which is the NHS, is always gagging for money.

You can always spend more on health but we spend too little, given the ageing population, relative to our peers. The basic problem is the Tory pretence that we can have an EU level of welfare with US level of taxation. 

But I'll stop here as I've realised I'm taking the thread off-topic.

 

[CharonY]

6 hours ago, Erina said:

@CharonY: I believe I have stated that children should, at that level, be equipped with the skills to find meaningful employment to give them the means to be self-sufficient. It is also paramount that the child be taught how to learn, not what to learn, so that they may continue to later in life, as we all never really stop.

This comment actually demonstrates what I have been talking about. The role of education is fuzzy, with sometimes contradictory goals. Let's start with self-sufficient: what is required to be self-sufficient in a given role? Clearly, the required skill set is very different depending on the job. But especially for young folks, how and when do you know what career they will get into? Careers are unpredictable and often young folks need time well into adulthood to find their path and discover their interests where they want to hone their skills. How does it work if early on a parent decides that certain subjects should not be presented?

The second part is universal, but again this is something that many folks do not want. The reasons is that the ability to learn is not easily quizzable and those excelling at it tend to be in the minority. However, parents often think that better grades equal better careers. So it is better for students to only have subjects where they can be easily trained to perform in tests. I.e. there is a desire to remove more complex topics (where you are forced to learn). This is a trend we now start to see in universities, where students have an increasing input on how they want to be taught. Having students/parent pre-determine what they want to learn is similarly bad as having patients determine their treatment. Most do not know what they need or what style of teaching works with them. As such diverse exposure is critical for young minds to find their path. The narrower educations gets, the more likely folks it is that folks will miss their mark. Specialization can only come after folks have a good idea of the the range that is out there. 

Moreover, learning to learn is the opposite of focused skill learning and it requires the broad exposure as you need to learn to integrate various forms and systems of knowledge, rather than excel in the application of a specialized form. Again, there are contradictory desires and with a presented pathway that is likely to fulfil neither.

 

[mistermack]

2 hours ago, Phi for All said:

Nothing is EVER going to change the fact that private schools MUST charge more for the same education because of their need for profit. 

That's not true and ridiculously simplistic. You can make a profit by cutting out waste and fiddles. State owned entities can be and often are ripped off for huge amounts, whereas privately owned businesses are more careful with their own money. 

[Phi for All]

3 minutes ago, mistermack said:

That's not true and ridiculously simplistic. You can make a profit by cutting out waste and fiddles. State owned entities can be and often are ripped off for huge amounts, whereas privately owned businesses are more careful with their own money. 

You can't fiddle with one side of the equation only. If private schools can identify and cut waste, so can public ones. And they'll always be cheaper in the long run because they don't have to charge extra for profit.

[mistermack]

9 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

You can't fiddle with one side of the equation only. If private schools can identify and cut waste, so can public ones. And they'll always be cheaper in the long run because they don't have to charge extra for profit.

That's ok in theory, but it doesn't work in practice. That's why Russia and China couldn't prosper as communist countries. It's easy to say that public entities can cut waste, but they don't. People operate better on real incentives. And there's no better incentive than making and spending your own money.