Methylene Chloride for my own DIY Paint Stripper

[jaypoorjay]

Hello All!

I'm new, first post, unless I missed it I didn't see an O-fficial intro section. Anyways,,,

I love forums, the community of it, shared info, supporting and I have grown to depend on them. Porsche forums, Jaguar forums, plumbing, motorcycle, woodworking, HVAC, solar on and on and on.

I was a pre-med chem major a million years ago.

My fiancee and I just purchased a big ol Victorian/Colonial Home in Staten Island NY and ,,, well that's what this is about.

I can easily say that on over 900 feet of trim, molding and crown there is no less than 1000 feet of surface that has no less than 7-8 coats of old paint, the deepest of which might be 100yrs old. I am looking for some no holds barred solutions for removing the old paint.

Methylene Chloride, banned from commercial strippers some years ago, is still available. Price-E but available.

Q: is there something I can mix with Methylene chloride, suspend CH²CL² in, to give me a paste, a gel or something that is spreadable and will not flash off and evaporate in seconds?

Silly Q: would a corn starch slury or a wallpaper kind of past work? Spread on, wipe off. Or would it be a matter of oil and water don't mix.

Any advise, suggestion, direction (even a DONT DO THIS!) Will be greatly appreciated.

[CharonY]

So the best advice is probably a don't do this. Methylene chloride is banned in many countries as it is rather harmful with a slew of issues including damage to the central nervous system, carbon monoxide intoxication (metabolization releases CO) and I believe there is also some level of cancer risk. If you use it inside a house, there is a high likelihood that you might reach potentially harmful levels pretty quickly. Basically, if you can smell it, it is already too high for safe work.

Also, if it is very old paint, it is best to test it for lead. You do not want to inhale that, either.

[jaypoorjay]

2 hours ago, CharonY said:

So the best advice is probably a don't do this. Methylene chloride is banned in many countries as it is rather harmful with a slew of issues including damage to the central nervous system, carbon monoxide intoxication (metabolization releases CO) and I believe there is also some level of cancer risk. If you use it inside a house, there is a high likelihood that you might reach potentially harmful levels pretty quickly. Basically, if you can smell it, it is already too high for safe work.

Also, if it is very old paint, it is best to test it for lead. You do not want to inhale that, either.

People used it for a looooong time. And still are. I'm aware of the risks. I will ONLY be using it outside. Only.

Thank you for your warnings and concerns.

Would liquid wax work?

[CharonY]

Well a lot of things (including lead, asbestos, PFAS ) have been used for a long time and it took a long time to figure out what damages they caused, so this is not a good argument. Working outside only would help, though. I am no chemist, but I would think that the organic solvent would dissolve most additives. Moreover, I don't think that viscosity would affect evaporation much. The latter should be mostly governed by volatility, but again, there are chemists here who have a better understanding of it. I am better informed in telling you about the biological effects of inhaling that stuff.

[studiot]

12 hours ago, jaypoorjay said:

Hello All!

I'm new, first post, unless I missed it I didn't see an O-fficial intro section. Anyways,,,

I love forums, the community of it, shared info, supporting and I have grown to depend on them. Porsche forums, Jaguar forums, plumbing, motorcycle, woodworking, HVAC, solar on and on and on.

I was a pre-med chem major a million years ago.

My fiancee and I just purchased a big ol Victorian/Colonial Home in Staten Island NY and ,,, well that's what this is about.

I can easily say that on over 900 feet of trim, molding and crown there is no less than 1000 feet of surface that has no less than 7-8 coats of old paint, the deepest of which might be 100yrs old. I am looking for some no holds barred solutions for removing the old paint.

Methylene Chloride, banned from commercial strippers some years ago, is still available. Price-E but available.

Q: is there something I can mix with Methylene chloride, suspend CH²CL² in, to give me a paste, a gel or something that is spreadable and will not flash off and evaporate in seconds?

Silly Q: would a corn starch slury or a wallpaper kind of past work? Spread on, wipe off. Or would it be a matter of oil and water don't mix.

Any advise, suggestion, direction (even a DONT DO THIS!) Will be greatly appreciated.

 

OK Welcome, I see you have some hard work ahead of you.

I suppose it kinda depends upon what you want to achieve and why?

Most importantly you haven't identified the substrate material that you wish to strip paint off.

Is is wood (if so what kind), plaster or what ?

I would recommend against any form of chemical stripper.

The results are disappointing, often needing many applications for stubborn bits and handling dangerous chemicals (they are all dangerous) up where I presume your trims are can but dicy, even if you are as you say, working outside.

I thought 900 feet sounded a lot when I first read it but looking around my house but it soon adds up and it really is not such a large amount.

33 years ago when we moved to our present house I had a similar amount  of old 1930s shellac (doors included) to strip from the inside woodwork.

I took all the doors off and took them down to a commercial dip tank (caustic soda I think) and have regretted it ever since.

Yes the chemicals stripped the stuff beautifully, but the panel doors  warped and some of the glues were removed as well.

So beware.

 

Traditionally the paint would have been removed with a blowtorch.

This also has the advantage of killing any spores etc in the substrate material and sterilising the substrate.

But it is a fire hazard.

Modern hot air strippers are much safer.

This was the method we finally employed to strip all the paint from the architrave, picture rails, skirting etc, along with a lot of elbow grease.

 

Some years later I came across, and used highly successfully removing materials from graffiti to chewing gum to bridge paint called Sponge Jet.

It really is like magic.

Basically small balls of sponge (some containing various grades of grit) are fired at the surface to be cleaned/stripped in an air stream.

The sponge balls distort and flatten on impact with the surface and allowing any abrasive to work.

The balls absorb removed dirt, paint rust etc and fall to the ground where they can be collected and put through a safe cleaning process for reuse.

You mentioned Staten Island so may be interested to know that this method was used to clean NY road tunnel walls removing years of dirt and lead buildup safely.

Sponge-Jet Clean, Dry, Low Dust, Reusable Abrasive Blasting (spongejet.com)

 

More information about your project would be useful, anyway good working and let us know how you get on.

 

 

 

[jaypoorjay]

1 hour ago, studiot said:

 

OK Welcome, I see you have some hard work ahead of you.

I suppose it kinda depends upon what you want to achieve and why?

Most importantly you haven't identified the substrate material that you wish to strip paint off.

Is is wood (if so what kind), plaster or what ?

I would recommend against any form of chemical stripper.

The results are disappointing, often needing many applications for stubborn bits and handling dangerous chemicals (they are all dangerous) up where I presume your trims are can but dicy, even if you are as you say, working outside.

I thought 900 feet sounded a lot when I first read it but looking around my house but it soon adds up and it really is not such a large amount.

33 years ago when we moved to our present house I had a similar amount  of old 1930s shellac (doors included) to strip from the inside woodwork.

I took all the doors off and took them down to a commercial dip tank (caustic soda I think) and have regretted it ever since.

Yes the chemicals stripped the stuff beautifully, but the panel doors  warped and some of the glues were removed as well.

So beware.

 

Traditionally the paint would have been removed with a blowtorch.

This also has the advantage of killing any spores etc in the substrate material and sterilising the substrate.

But it is a fire hazard.

Modern hot air strippers are much safer.

This was the method we finally employed to strip all the paint from the architrave, picture rails, skirting etc, along with a lot of elbow grease.

 

Some years later I came across, and used highly successfully removing materials from graffiti to chewing gum to bridge paint called Sponge Jet.

It really is like magic.

Basically small balls of sponge (some containing various grades of grit) are fired at the surface to be cleaned/stripped in an air stream.

The sponge balls distort and flatten on impact with the surface and allowing any abrasive to work.

The balls absorb removed dirt, paint rust etc and fall to the ground where they can be collected and put through a safe cleaning process for reuse.

You mentioned Staten Island so may be interested to know that this method was used to clean NY road tunnel walls removing years of dirt and lead buildup safely.

Sponge-Jet Clean, Dry, Low Dust, Reusable Abrasive Blasting (spongejet.com)

 

More information about your project would be useful, anyway good working and let us know how you get on.

 

 

 

Good morning, Man. Thank you. Amazing response. Amazing information and I will be following your leads, and see where they lead. 

Its old paint on wood. Lots of layers. Yes lead. So far, as I work to remove paint on different sections of the house, I remove the trim and window surrounds and do the work on a bench outside. Trying to figure out a "mass production" approach where I lay out several layers side by side on bench, apply a Stripping product and proceed. I collect any debris and materials removed. Slow slow going. I would just continue one side by side and take my time BUT there are many other projects and items that need attention. I need to speed this up.

For the long stretches of siding/clapboard I have a machine from a NZ company called Alderson. Costly but works. Uses a strong motor to turn a very abrasive disk, injecting just enough water to prevent the clogging of the disk and to carry debris away. No dust. I collect the water thru a series of temp gutters, filters and buckets. Works well.

I work 50+ hours a week, time is tight and hard to find. From a chemical standpoint. 

I am aware of health risks and have NO want to pollute. 

So, is there something that can be added to the Methylene that will disolve and thinken the liquid, stabilize it's flash and volatility and allow me to work with it on the wood to remove the paint??? That's basically what I'm after... If it doesn't work or proves to challenging I'll move on and try different approaches.

The issue with blasting is that I would need a compressor that is beyond what I have. Most any DIY compressor would struggle to meet the demand I think.

I'm very open to ideas. 

 

Edited May 12, 2023 by jaypoorjay

[jaypoorjay]

20 hours ago, CharonY said:

Well a lot of things (including lead, asbestos, PFAS ) have been used for a long time and it took a long time to figure out what damages they caused, so this is not a good argument. Working outside only would help, though. I am no chemist, but I would think that the organic solvent would dissolve most additives. Moreover, I don't think that viscosity would affect evaporation much. The latter should be mostly governed by volatility, but again, there are chemists here who have a better understanding of it. I am better informed in telling you about the biological effects of inhaling that stuff.

 

Yes, it took a loooooong time to figure it out for asbestos, lead, bacteria, ultraviolet light, mercury, cigarettes, CFCs, oxycodone, pcbs and and and the list goes on... Then we DID figure it out and we took and are taking measures. WE continue to use Methylene Chloride (and pretty much everything in the list above) but it is just not sold to the general public in the way it was, so folks can just go grab it in a shelf and take showers in it, irresponsibly... Like us humans do. So they stopped selling it at walk in hardware stores marked as an everyday product - like paint stripper. We still use lead, we still use asbestos, we just don't use it as freely. Its regulated. Anyways, 

I'm thinking that a non polar not as volatile liquid (in several places I have read paraffin) might give me something that I can work with. And I'm asking for help in naming what that liquid might be. 

[StringJunky]

Things that are easily disassembled could be sent to be dipped  and stripped by a commercial service, then you'll just have the immovable bits to do. That way you are reducing exposure.

Edited May 13, 2023 by StringJunky

[John Cuthber]

A hot air gun is probably the option that minimises exposure to nasties (including lead).
It leaves any lead compounds in a sticky painty mess which falls on the floor and can be disposed of.
An abrasive will turn it into dust which will get everywhere including your lungs.

Get a fire extinguisher, just in case.
I think a hot air gun is the cheapest option too.

One vital point. Do Not Combine DCM And Either A Heat Gun Or A Blowtorch.
You will generate phosgene.
(DCM is bad, but nobody ever used it as a war gas.)

It's obviously possible to add some chemical to CDM to thicken it- because the manufacturers of paint stripper do just that.
But I don't  know what they added.

Edited May 13, 2023 by John Cuthber

[TheVat]

On 5/13/2023 at 2:23 AM, John Cuthber said:

A hot air gun is probably the option that minimises exposure to nasties (including lead).
It leaves any lead compounds in a sticky painty mess which falls on the floor and can be disposed of.

My experience too.  I've renovated six houses, and have found nothing better than a heating coil.  Hold it the right distance and the paint softens, moisture in the underlying wood vaporizes and causes rapid bubble formation, then scrape away.  By far the best approach when there are 7-8 layers, as the heat penetrates all and bubbles form from the wood layer.  You quickly learn a speed that doesn't scorch the wood.

The exception might be crown mouldings, like a roman ogee profile, where it's really difficult to bubble and scrape without spending your remaining lifespan on it.  That might be easier to take to a pro dipper/stripper, or just find someone who can match the profile and rout you some new stuff.  

And all of this is child's play compared to black mastic removal from old tile-over-wood floors.  Another forum thread someday, perhaps.

[chris.scotland]

Very late to the party but just for future reference, a patent search reveals a couple of potential formulations for paint stripper using DCM (methylene chloride).

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/patent/search?q=methylene%20chloride%20paint%20removal

The first and easiest being to mix it with Bentonite clay to make a paste. I would strongly advise against handling chloroacetic acid.

Quote

A paint stripper of particular use for removing aged plastisol paints from building exteriors comprises an organic acid accelerator, usually a chloroacetic acid, a chlorine-substituted hydrocarbon, usually methylene chloride, and an inorganic thickener, usually bentonite.

I found another reference to using PEG4000 (polymer) to thicken the mixture and although the overall composition is more complex I believe the PEG is responsible for thickening the mixture.

Quote

in the following relative amounts, in wt%: 65.0-80.0 methylene chloride; 8.0-20.0 formic acid; 2.0-8.0 paraffin; 2.0-10.0 PEG 4000; 2.0-8.0 PEG 300; 0.5-3.0 surfactant. The composition can be produced in the form of a gel-like liquid.