Physical Revue says "Whiteboards are Racist"

[Intoscience]

16 hours ago, iNow said:

Thank you for responding. One other part of my post was asking about mechanisms to determine "yes - reparations are appropriate" versus "no - reparations are not appropriate."

I asked this bc you've been encouraging us all NOT to use skin color when making reparations decisions. I'm certainly open to using better metrics, but struggle to envision what those might be.

Are you able to please elaborate on your thinking on this "threshold for reparations appropriateness" so I may better understand what alternative mechanisms may be workable here?

I think Zaptos is on the right track with his reply to this question. MigL then goes o to make what I feel are some valid points. This is sort of where I'm at. 

I think the misconception is that I'm against reparations for injustices towards black people. This couldn't be further from the truth. I would just prefer reparations to be calculated based on individual losses. In that the reparation process doesn't need to follow any racially lead approach even if the outcome is that the majority of  cases will be based on skin colour.  If you want to focus on a particular group and use a mechanism which compensates based on the defining factor of that group then by all means if this is the best way to fix the problems in the US then I'm in no position to pass judgement since I'm not a US citizen. 

18 hours ago, dimreepr said:

I'm sorry, but WTF are you talking about?

If the source of the issue is, someone's kicked me in the nuts, and you're the coach that hasn't explained the benefit of a box; your best tactic is to divert my attention??? 🖖 

No, you are misunderstanding what I mean. Sure you have been kicked in the nuts, I'm sure you feel like kicking them back in their nuts. This is the point. 

17 hours ago, Phi for All said:

I can consolidate my arguments on this subject.

We can discuss politics, because we can disagree on how much to spend on national defense or fixing the highways. Those are political issues. 

We can't discuss racism, child abuse, and discrimination in the same way, because these are moral issues. They're just wrong, and it's very frustrating that some folks here are trying to make it seem less wrong.

I don't think anyone is suggesting to do anything to cause further injustice or delay reparations. Why do you feel that we are trying to make it seem less wrong? I think in general I'm/we are trying to point out that any system that is successful in its goal requires consistences for all.  

[StringJunky]

Talking of the devil, Reuters has an article on reparations:

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-slavery-reparations/

Edited June 27, 2023 by StringJunky

[dimreepr]

5 hours ago, Intoscience said:

No, you are misunderstanding what I mean. Sure you have been kicked in the nuts, I'm sure you feel like kicking them back in their nuts. This is the point.

No, I'd prefer to have a coach that 'gives out boxes', even to the kid's he doesn't like.

That's the point.

[Phi for All]

6 hours ago, Intoscience said:

I don't think anyone is suggesting to do anything to cause further injustice or delay reparations. Why do you feel that we are trying to make it seem less wrong? I think in general I'm/we are trying to point out that any system that is successful in its goal requires consistences for all.  

At this point, I still have major problems with the argument you and MigL have put forth, that any solution that involves using skin color as a factor is automatically going to be racist. I think this argument is not only wrong (and I've explained why several times), it's what is keeping you both from seeing the reasoning behind the solutions that have been proposed.

[MigL]

And yet, we have both agreed with the solutions proposed.
So, if you are mistaken about one thing, then maybe you are mistaken about others, and you are not seeing the  reasoning behind our arguments.

[iNow]

9 hours ago, Intoscience said:

I would just prefer reparations to be calculated based on individual losses.

Well, that's fair, and that'd be my preference too. However, IMO it's not reasonable nor scalable when discussing tens upon tens of millions of people across multiple generations. 

If it were easy and we could use AI to do it or something, then sure. Let's go!! Done!!

But it's not, and it therefore introduces an obstacle so significant as to make such programs unworkable and doomed to failure.

We either choose to accept the risk of the program being imperfect, or we do nothing. That's obviously not your stated preference or position (doing nothing), but it's the logical outcome and consequence of what you're proposing, IMO.

3 hours ago, StringJunky said:

Talking of the devil, Reuters has an article on reparations:

Thanks for the article. Seeing that folks like Louis Gohmert from TX who brought a snowball on to the House floor as evidence that climate change is a hoax are in the opposition and folks like Elizabeth Warren whom I'm caucused for in the presidential election are in support, that makes me feel slightly more justified in my stance... but that's admittedly just a bit of confirmation / group preference bias on my part.

Slightly surprised to see my post from last night where I tried to connect with MisterMack on a human level got negged, but that's fine... Curious to know what I said that was offensive there, however, so I may use that feedback to adjust my own behavior moving forward. 

[MigL]

May have been retaliatory.
I see nothing wrong with your post.

[Genady]

I am pretty sure it was the same person who downvoted half a dozen of my posts about the same time. We both know that person now.

[mistermack]

3 hours ago, iNow said:

Slightly surprised to see my post from last night where I tried to connect with MisterMack on a human level got negged,

No, you were preaching down to me. Of course I negged it. Too long, too preachy and self rightous to get involved with, so I said it with a neg. AL point. 

And no Genady, not me.

[TheVat]

2 hours ago, Genady said:

I am pretty sure it was the same person who downvoted half a dozen of my posts about the same time. We both know that person now.

I wondered what had happened in Camouflage thread.  Then saw where the poster had taken offense, and retaliated for it.  I cancelled about three of the neg reps, as they seemed unjust and based on spite rather than quality of the posts.  

 

[Genady]

54 minutes ago, TheVat said:

I wondered what had happened in Camouflage thread.  Then saw where the poster had taken offense, and retaliated for it.  I cancelled about three of the neg reps, as they seemed unjust and based on spite rather than quality of the posts.  

 

Thank you, @TheVat! I've noticed that few of these negs disappeared and suspected that mods took care of that. Good to know that it was you. 

[Phi for All]

40 minutes ago, Genady said:

Thank you, @TheVat! I've noticed that few of these negs disappeared and suspected that mods took care of that. Good to know that it was you. 

!

Moderator Note

We can't do anything about your rep count, other than what The Vat did. We saw your report but by that time enough people had disagreed with the negatives. 

 

[Genady]

4 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

!

Moderator Note

We can't do anything about your rep count, other than what The Vat did. We saw your report but by that time enough people had disagreed with the negatives. 

 

Thank you to everyone!

[iNow]

5 hours ago, mistermack said:

No, you were preaching down to me. Of course I negged it. Too long, too preachy and self rightous to get involved with, so I said it with a neg. AL point. 

I see. Thank you for claiming and explaining. Sorry I made you feel worse than you apparently already do. That's not what I want. I want you as an ally, I recognize that's a huge hill to climb, and I'm not allergic to hard work so am willing to, but you obviously don't have to. Cheers. 

One quick PS... FWIW... I'm also totally willing to explore how to make Africa whole again after the centuries of stealing their people as slaves, but would see that as more of a UN or IMF owned effort whereas this thread has focused on reparations in the US.

Maybe we do a "pilot" program in the US and after we see proof of concept THEN we expand elsewhere? Not sure. Just trying to find a way to meet you in the middle somewhere. I'll start walking your way if you start walking mine... We'll meet in the middle beneath an old Georgia pine. 

[mistermack]

17 minutes ago, iNow said:

Sorry I made you feel worse than you apparently already do.

Evidence? You have no more idea of how I feel, than you do about reparations. I don't feel bad, I feel slightly irritated to read it, because I like to stay within the bounds of reality, and fantasy just niggles me. 

There might be some tokenism, performed to attract votes from some quarters, but there won't be reparations on any real scale. It's just fantasy.

And in any case, they are not always a good thing. The reparations imposed on Germany after WW1 directly created the atmosphere for WW2. That's widely accepted by historians as a fact. Just a small matter of about fifty million deaths, and enormous squandered resources, laid directly at the door of WW1 reparations. 

[iNow]

I appreciate you sharing your viewpoint. Much of what you say has merit. 

[CharonY]

2 minutes ago, mistermack said:

And in any case, they are not always a good thing. The reparations imposed on Germany after WW1 directly created the atmosphere for WW2. That's widely accepted by historians as a fact.

Talking about fantasy, historians discuss the Versailles treaty as one of many contributing factors, rather than drawing a direct line (the Nazis used it for their propaganda, though, which is in part where some of the myths came about). There have been proponents of this thesis, including contemporaries such as John Maynard Keynes.  

 

But some key facts weaken that argument. One is that before the NSDAP came to power the payments were effectively dead in the water, the sum was re-negotiated several times and payments were deferred (and basically cancelled in the Lausanne Conference).

The actual payment provided were much less than Germany could have afforded after economic recovery in the interim period. And yes, it was a potent propaganda tool inasmuch as the felt impact was way higher than the actual one. However, in terms of economic destabilization the Great Depression had a much higher impact. So in that light, the "fact" is a bit iffy and trying to draw a line to the reparations under discussion requires a fair bit of mental gymnastics. What is rather similar are probably perception vs impact.

 

[Intoscience]

16 hours ago, Phi for All said:

At this point, I still have major problems with the argument you and MigL have put forth, that any solution that involves using skin color as a factor is automatically going to be racist. I think this argument is not only wrong (and I've explained why several times), it's what is keeping you both from seeing the reasoning behind the solutions that have been proposed.

If you are prepared to use skin color as a factor for discrimination whether positive or negative then does that not automatically qualify it as racist? This is the argument that is often used by many racial activists on the flip side. 

My argument is more about changing people's attitude towards racism, a start would be to stop highlighting skin color differences in circumstances where it may invoke further racial tension. There are people out there who fully believe that if you are black then you cannot be a racist and that if you are white then this automatically makes you a racist.  Then you have the very racist people who genuinely believe that skin color defines a person's status in society. These attitudes need to be expelled. 

My point being, skin color should have no influence. Discrimination both positive & negative by skin color has done nothing but cause harm to people either directly or indirectly. 

The people who have suffered injustice as a result of their skin color deserve reparations, full agreed. 

However, 

iNow keeps point out to me that an ideological system which I may envision will not work. Maybe iNow is correct (nothing is infallible). All I'm trying to point out is that invoking further discrimination by skin color, even if positive, may not in the long run produce positive outcomes for all and may further invoke directly or indirectly negative racial attitudes. 

Honestly I'd be a fool to say I have an answer, maybe the sensible approach is to follow your proposed system. But again honestly, I'm of the opinion that to eradicate racism is to change people's attitudes towards it, starting with stop making a deal about all physical differences, including skin color.  

  

Edited June 28, 2023 by Intoscience
spelling

[StringJunky]

7 hours ago, iNow said:

I see. Thank you for claiming and explaining. Sorry I made you feel worse than you apparently already do. That's not what I want. I want you as an ally, I recognize that's a huge hill to climb, and I'm not allergic to hard work so am willing to, but you obviously don't have to. Cheers. 

One quick PS... FWIW... I'm also totally willing to explore how to make Africa whole again after the centuries of stealing their people as slaves, but would see that as more of a UN or IMF owned effort whereas this thread has focused on reparations in the US.

Maybe we do a "pilot" program in the US and after we see proof of concept THEN we expand elsewhere? Not sure. Just trying to find a way to meet you in the middle somewhere. I'll start walking your way if you start walking mine... We'll meet in the middle beneath an old Georgia pine. 

You will not find it hard to find that black-on-black slavery predates white-on-black. The US and Europeans merely joined in... it was enabled by black people that already were in business.

https://news.osu.edu/when-europeans-were-slaves--research-suggests-white-slavery-was-much-more-common-than-previously-believed/

It's important not to over-generalize. Talk about slavery in the US only, then you are on safer ground.

Quote

During the time period Davis studied, it was religion and ethnicity, as much as race, that determined who became slaves.

“Enslavement was a very real possibility for anyone who traveled in the Mediterranean, or who lived along the shores in places like Italy, France, Spain and Portugal, and even as far north as England and Iceland,” he said.

Pirates (called corsairs) from cities along the Barbary Coast in north Africa – cities such as Tunis and Algiers – would raid ships in the Mediterranean and Atlantic, as well as seaside villages to capture men, women and children. The impact of these attacks were devastating – France, England, and Spain each lost thousands of ships, and long stretches of the Spanish and Italian coasts were almost completely abandoned by their inhabitants. At its peak, the destruction and depopulation of some areas probably exceeded what European slavers would later inflict on the African interior.

History is complicated. Let's stick to the US.

Edited June 28, 2023 by StringJunky

[dimreepr]

3 hours ago, StringJunky said:

You will not find it hard to find that black-on-black slavery predates white-on-black. The US and Europeans merely joined in... it was enabled by black people that already were in business.

https://news.osu.edu/when-europeans-were-slaves--research-suggests-white-slavery-was-much-more-common-than-previously-believed/

It's important not to over-generalize. Talk about slavery in the US only, then you are on safer ground.

That fact doesn't mitigate the vast profits the US and Europe made on the back of the black-on-black slavers, the significant historical evidence is, Africa is still poor despite being the inventors of the trade.

It doesn't matter how you dress the argument, it's still a Barbie; it's just an excuse to not put your hand in your pocket; like the one many people use to not give the change in their pocket to a beggar:

They'll just spend it on booze; so what? 

Most one of them made more money than I do; so what?

But the best excuse of all, I don't have any cash, because I'm damn sure you don't have a card reader... 

[StringJunky]

9 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

That fact doesn't mitigate the vast profits the US and Europe made on the back of the black-on-black slavers, the significant historical evidence is, Africa is still poor despite being the inventors of the trade.

It doesn't matter how you dress the argument, it's still a Barbie; it's just an excuse to not put your hand in your pocket; like the one many people use to not give the change in their pocket to a beggar:

They'll just spend it on booze; so what? 

Most one of them made more money than I do; so what?

But the best excuse of all, I don't have any cash, because I'm damn sure you don't have a card reader... 

 

10 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

That fact doesn't mitigate the vast profits the US and Europe made on the back of the black-on-black slavers, the significant historical evidence is, Africa is still poor despite being the inventors of the trade.

It doesn't matter how you dress the argument, it's still a Barbie; it's just an excuse to not put your hand in your pocket; like the one many people use to not give the change in their pocket to a beggar:

They'll just spend it on booze; so what? 

Most one of them made more money than I do; so what?

But the best excuse of all, I don't have any cash, because I'm damn sure you don't have a card reader... 

Like a true GOP American... thinking about the money...

[dimreepr]

1 minute ago, StringJunky said:

 

Like a true GOP American... thinking about the money...

Nope, a true GOP American, thinks only about saving their money... 

Everyone, has to think about money or the economy goes tits-up...

 

Quote

 

No man is an island,

Entire of itself;

Every man is a piece of the continent, 

A part of the main.

If a clod be washed away by the sea,

Europe is the less,

As well as if a promontory were:

As well as if a manor of thy friend's

Or of thine own were.

Any man's death diminishes me,

Because I am involved in mankind.

And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;

It tolls for thee.

 

 

Do you want me to explain 'ozymandias' too? 

[Phi for All]

7 hours ago, Intoscience said:

If you are prepared to use skin color as a factor for discrimination whether positive or negative then does that not automatically qualify it as racist?

No. 21 pages in and it's still NO.

If we somehow discovered we'd been systemically discriminating against people with albinism, those with almost no melanin, denying them the potential to prosper because of the way they look, what other factors do you want to consider besides those that make them albino? Seriously, this objection has NEVER made any sense to me.

If a judge determines a thief who stole my money must pay that money back, is the judge practicing thievery by using money as a factor?

[TheVat]

Wonder if one reason the debate over theft v reparation never resolves is a basic tension between the conservative and progressive philosophies.  Conservatives emphasize personal responsibility and prog/liberals lean more on community responsibility.  So cons are more liable to view paying for someone else's need (if they themselves did not personally cause that need) as a theft from them.  That feeling informs their views on a range of public amenities which they may object to.  E.g. I get to work on my own so why should I fund a mass transit bond?  Or, my kids go to private school so why should I fund a public school system?  Or, I didn't get you addicted to drugs so why should I help pay for a drug treatment center in my city?

The prog rejoinder to such views usually boils down to Society should try to help lift everyone up; that creates a more livable and safer community which benefits everyone.

This difference in perspective is very hard to resolve.  In America especially where so many idealize the mythos of the rugged individualist and the Self-Made Man.  

[iNow]

9 hours ago, Intoscience said:

skin color should have no influence

We are 100% aligned here. I support moving in this direction. Fully.

I'm just trying to be realistic. It's an idealized outcome unlikely to be achieved, IMO. It's a state of perfection, and focus on this tends to prevent us from reaching a state of "better." I don't want to sacrifice the good in pursuit of the perfect. 

7 hours ago, StringJunky said:

You will not find it hard to find that black-on-black slavery predates white-on-black.

100% correct, but not in the United States, which is where I've thus far been focusing my own comments in support of reparations. 

7 hours ago, StringJunky said:

alk about slavery in the US only, then you are on safer ground.

Glad we agree  

1 hour ago, TheVat said:

get to work on my own so why should I fund a mass transit bond?  Or, my kids go to private school so why should I fund a public school system?  Or, I didn't get you addicted to drugs so why should I help pay for a drug treatment center in my city?

Or I paid off my student loan debt, why can't you!?