Physical Revue says "Whiteboards are Racist"

[zapatos]

2 hours ago, StringJunky said:

Jim Crows victims are dead... kaput. their experience cannot be felt by people alive today in the US. 

Is it fair to assume you are against Jews recovering family possessions and funds that were taken due to the Nazis? The victims of Naziism are after all dead... kaput. Is it also true that their experience cannot be felt by people alive today?

[iNow]

13 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Address  their problems of today, not half a century ago, a century ago etc.

Why not? Is there a statute of limitations about which I’m unaware?

 

14 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

I think here needs to be a fundamental rethink about lobbying protocols in Congress

Me too, but that seems both peripheral to our discussion here AND like a good idea regardless of where we ultimately land on reparations. 

[zapatos]

2 hours ago, StringJunky said:

Jim Crows victims are dead... kaput. their experience cannot be felt by people alive today in the US. 

Sorry, but I'm having a hard time getting past this statement. It is hard for me to believe that you cannot see that the lack of education and wealth building done by previous generations has an impact on the current generation. Most wealthy people aren't wealthy because they pulled themselves up by their bootstraps. They are wealthy because their families have accumulated wealth and power over generations. Without previous generations, would King Charles be wealthy? Would Trump be wealthy? Would Kennedy have been President of the United States?

[StringJunky]

6 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Is it fair to assume you are against Jews recovering family possessions and funds that were taken due to the Nazis? The victims of Naziism are after all dead... kaput. Is it also true that their experience cannot be felt by people alive today?

Fine. You've got evidence, tangible stuff. You know, documented. Dealing with individual's or even families issues... not class actions for every perceived unquantifiable historical slight, which is what some of you seem to be promoting. The people alive today are wholly naive about their long-gone ancestors experiences imo. If they are alive today and they lived in that time, then obviously their experience counts. 

[zapatos]

2 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

not class actions for every perceived unquantifiable historical slight, which is what some of you seem to be promoting

Who? Please be specific. Sounds like a big, fat straw man to me.

3 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Fine. You've got evidence, tangible stuff. You know, documented. Dealing with individual's or even families issues...

So Jews have evidence but blacks don't? I can't fucking stand this shit.

[StringJunky]

59 minutes ago, iNow said:

Why not? Is there a statute of limitations about which I’m unaware?

 

Me too, but that seems both peripheral to our discussion here AND like a good idea regardless of where we ultimately land on reparations. 

It's not peripheral;, it's front and centre... evolution, not revolution. You don't fix these things in 10 years, try fifty from now. Small steps.

52 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Who? Please be specific. Sounds like a big, fat straw man to me.

So Jews have evidence but blacks don't? I can't fucking stand this shit.

Apply strawmen correctly.  Well, this is half the problem, why things aren't getting done... beating on about events that are not even in most adults memories. People just go, like me "Yeah, ok". "Fuck off".... in my mind. Nothing gets done. And here we are. Do you fancy bouncing some more echoes at me?

[MigL]

1 hour ago, StringJunky said:

This is a prime candidate for applying the same standards of conduct. I think it is antithetical to the principle of a fair democracy that those with means can completely override those less fortunate.

Stringy has provided another good idea for mitigating racism.
Also, Canada, a nation of 38 Million people, brought in over one Million immigrants last year.
How many did the US, a nation with almost 10 times as many people, let in ?

At every turn we are accused of not wanting to offer compensation to those who were treated unjustly.
On the contrary, we are all for compensating those who have suffered injustices, and many times, that is the same set as those black people who were racially discriminated, but sometimes, it is not.
So we are against using race as a criteria.

But I have to ask.
Whenever we mention/suggest steps that the US could take to mitigate racism and its current effects, we are told
"It is unworkable"
"It is impossible"
"There's no use even trying"

Are you guys, then, happy with the status quo ?
Do you think racism is an essential part of your America ?

( we've had those questions about reparations put to us for the last 15 pages )

[iNow]

57 minutes ago, MigL said:

Are you guys, then, happy with the status quo ?
Do you think racism is an essential part of your America ?

No to both, yet roughly 33% of my fellow citizens apparently feel otherwise. 

[StringJunky]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

Stringy has provided another good idea for mitigating racism.
Also, Canada, a nation of 38 Million people, brought in over one Million immigrants last year.
How many did the US, a nation with almost 10 times as many people, let in ?

At every turn we are accused of not wanting to offer compensation to those who were treated unjustly.
On the contrary, we are all for compensating those who have suffered injustices, and many times, that is the same set as those black people who were racially discriminated, but sometimes, it is not.
So we are against using race as a criteria.

But I have to ask.
Whenever we mention/suggest steps that the US could take to mitigate racism and its current effects, we are told
"It is unworkable"
"It is impossible"
"There's no use even trying"

Are you guys, then, happy with the status quo ?
Do you think racism is an essential part of your America ?

( we've had those questions about reparations put to us for the last 15 pages )

The emphasis, to me, in the public sphere is material reparations are the remedy when the issues are of a more intangible systemic nature.

E2A Material things are what everybody understands and can relate to intuitively.

Edited June 17, 2023 by StringJunky

[iNow]

Sure, but sometimes diet and exercise aren’t enough by themselves to be healthy.

Sometimes you also need medicine, antibiotics, a change in bandages, a warm place to sleep… yet y’all keep suggesting anyone who thinks we likely need more than just proper diet and good exercise to help heal centuries of oppression are… what, exactly? Trying to do too much? Being foolish? Paternalistic? Trying to assuage guilt? Being too woke? Missing some point? 

No. For me, I’m just being realistic about what constitutes a workable and feasibly implementable improvement in the lives of many millions of people who are part of families that haven’t been given a fair shake across multiple generations.  

[StringJunky]

Just now, iNow said:

Sure, but sometimes diet and exercise aren’t enough by themselves to be healthy.

Sometimes you also need medicine, antibiotics, a change in bandages, a warm place to sleep… yet y’all keep suggesting anyone who thinks we likely need more than just proper diet and good exercise to help heal centuries of oppression are… what, exactly? Trying to do too much? Being foolish? Paternalistic? Trying to assuage guilt? Being too woke? Missing some point? 

No. For me, I’m just being realistic about what constitutes a workable and feasibly implementable improvement in the lives of many millions of people who are part of families that haven’t been given a fair shake across multiple generations.  

Whatever. You are, right now in chess terms throwing your hands through the pieces.

[dimreepr]

14 hours ago, StringJunky said:

Reparations' - it's as vague 'woke'. Until you put meat on the bones and put numbers on it, it's just air. You can't fix spilt milk, you can only wipe it up and figure out why it happened.  The milk has gone, just like all those historical slaves, Jim Crows victims are dead... kaput. their experience cannot be felt by people alive today in the US.

It's funny isn't it, we're willing to spend untold millions in celabrating the 'triumphs' of the dead, or essentially kaput, WWII et al, and spend untold millions defending/hiding the mistakes of our father's, (edit to add. rather than just say sorry); but we're willing to "spend a penny" (pun intended) on their living victim's.

Well I say funny 🤒. But you gotta laugh at something... 

 

11 hours ago, StringJunky said:

not class actions for every perceived unquantifiable historical slight, which is what some of you seem to be promoting.

I'm just trying to promote a better society, what's your excuse?

Edited June 17, 2023 by dimreepr

[MigL]

Just in case you missed it every other time I've posted it ...
'Better' is subjective !

[iNow]

9 hours ago, StringJunky said:

Whatever. You are, right now in chess terms throwing your hands through the pieces.

I don’t understand this post beyond knowing you seem to think I’m being foolish or overreacting. Will you please elaborate on why that’s your interpretation of / response to what I said?

11 hours ago, MigL said:

we are all for compensating those who have suffered injustices, and many times, that is the same set as those black people who were racially discriminated, but sometimes, it is not.
So we are against using race as a criteria.

May I ask you to please highlight for me where I might find this mythical group of black people who have never been discriminated against nor suffered any injustices? I’d like to better understand how common that experience is across the larger population. 

[MigL]

I said the set may not be the same.
It could be smaller if some black people had not suffered past injustices, or it could be larger if other groups had suffered past injustices also.

Why are you so ready to compensate one group for being unfairly treated in the past, but willing to discriminate against any other groups that were also unfairly treated ?

Do you not see how that could be considered a racist attitude ?
That is why we believe ithe criteria for compensation should be injustice suffered, not race.

[TheVat]

43 minutes ago, MigL said:

Why are you so ready to compensate one group for being unfairly treated in the past, but willing to discriminate against any other groups that were also unfairly treated ?

Isn't that sort of a straw man?  I find most people who favor reparations to Blacks also favor them to Native Americans and other groups like Japanese-Americans whose families were placed in internment camps during WW2 or the Latinos who were displaced from Chavez Ravine in LA.  I've never seen reparations as solely for Blacks.  For sure, politics operates by the pressure of special interest groups, and they will by their very nature be focused on a particular group.  If I join a group to support returning the Black Hills to the Lakota tribe, it doesn't mean I'm not also in favor of compensating Blacks, Latinos displaced from Chavez Ravine, et al.

[StringJunky]

4 hours ago, dimreepr said:

I'm just trying to promote a better society, what's your excuse?

Where exactly have you promoted a better society. If you have nothing substantive to say, don't say it...

1 hour ago, TheVat said:

Isn't that sort of a straw man?  I find most people who favor reparations to Blacks also favor them to Native Americans and other groups like Japanese-Americans whose families were placed in internment camps during WW2 or the Latinos who were displaced from Chavez Ravine in LA.  I've never seen reparations as solely for Blacks.  For sure, politics operates by the pressure of special interest groups, and they will by their very nature be focused on a particular group.  If I join a group to support returning the Black Hills to the Lakota tribe, it doesn't mean I'm not also in favor of compensating Blacks, Latinos displaced from Chavez Ravine, et al.

But that's for you to express and not for us to assume.

Would it be possible to avoid a Red Fest. As an avid reader of the Institute for the Study of War, it appears "conditions are being set for an attritional conflict..."  

Edited June 17, 2023 by StringJunky

[MigL]

2 hours ago, TheVat said:

If I join a group to support returning the Black Hills to the Lakota tribe, it doesn't mean I'm not also in favor of compensating Blacks, Latinos displaced from Chavez Ravine, et al.

Then why not simply say you are in favor of reparations to all who have suffered injustices in the past ( as we have been saying ), and not a system that awards reparations based on race, and which may discrminate against some groups equally impacted ?

[TheVat]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

Then why not simply say you are in favor of reparations to all who have suffered injustices in the past ( as we have been saying ), and not a system that awards reparations based on race, and which may discrminate against some groups equally impacted ?

Well, not sure who suggested only one ethnic (more precise term than race, perhaps, given that some blacks may be first-gen immigrants from someplace where their families were not enslaved) group get reparations.  Many group definitions happen to have a racial component, like my exampled Lakotas and Chavez Ravine outcasts, but their group has other distinguishing features that allow a sharper delineation of the wrongs committed.  This approach is more akin to tort law than to discrimination.  E.g. if Dupont compensates every worker made ill by Teflon, we don't wring our hands that all the non-Teflon workers are "discriminated against."  

[iNow]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

why not simply say you are in favor of reparations to all who have suffered injustices in the past

I am in favor of reparations to all who have suffered systemic race based injustices in the past.

I also acknowledge that blacks in the US are clearly the majority fitting this criteria and have been the majority fitting this criteria for centuries. 

Now, let’s spend them next 15 pages nitpicking these word choices and semantics so we can continue avoiding the discussion about what reparations should look like. 

[TheVat]

2 hours ago, StringJunky said:

But that's for you to express and not for us to assume.

See my reply to Mig.  I mean, why assume the converse?  If someone checks the box for reparations to African-Americans, why assume they would exclude other ethnic groups from a similar tort law approach?  Does anyone out there really say, black reparations yes, but to hell with the indigenous tribes, displaced Latinos, and Japanese internment families!   Many I'm sure are like @iNow, seeing all such compensations as worthwhile but knowing that politics is the Art of the Possible, rationally choose to focus on the numerically largest and longest-oppressed group.  

[MigL]

Thank you, we finally sem to be agreeing on something.

But isn't that what Jez suggested many pages ago ?
That reparations should be given to all who suffered past injustices and handled through the courts.
But the response to him was that he was wasting time, because he really didn't want to allow reparations to be given to America's black slave descendants.

Why did you assume the converse, TheVat ?

[StringJunky]

3 hours ago, iNow said:

I am in favor of reparations to all who have suffered systemic race based injustices in the past.

I also acknowledge that blacks in the US are clearly the majority fitting this criteria and have been the majority fitting this criteria for centuries. 

Now, let’s spend them next 15 pages nitpicking these word choices and semantics so we can continue avoiding the discussion about what reparations should look like. 

Minorities need representing by the same minorities in the positions of influence and leadership. Whites doing it for them won't cut it. All minority youth sees is charity when whites do it in the absence of minority leaders, They should be inspired by people with similar histories.

On nit-picking: You have to deal with the weeds before you can plant the flowers. Do you paint around the picture frame, or do you lift it away and paint underneath?

Edited June 17, 2023 by StringJunky

[iNow]

7 hours ago, MigL said:

isn't that what Jez suggested many pages ago ? <…> Why did you assume the converse, TheVat ?

Maybe bc that Jizz poster made THIS thread his very first post after creating an account at SFN. Maybe bc w/o ever once interacting with anyone here they were quick to assume, willfully obtuse, and intentionally misleading / misrepresentative of others.

You’re asking why treat THAT obvious bad faith poster any differently from ME… the guy you’ve been enjoying online for over a decade now and who has something like 30,000 posts? Really? You’re really asking that?

Sigh…

And THAT, boys and girls, is why Jez and other internet cum stains like him actively post to sites like these (or setup bots and AIs to do it for them) all just to pour gasoline on to the topic dumpster fire which is racism and reparations … and why? Bc without fail it manages to split apart friends, families, and entire communities into us/them tribes blind to the humanity in those horrid putrid “others.” Because it keeps us fighting instead of fixing. Distracted… But that’s OT.

Any weak fool can knock the barn down, but it takes courage and strength to build ‘em up.

Edited June 18, 2023 by iNow

[MigL]

You're becoming very cynical in old age 😃 .
You really should 'lighten up' a little.