Solar panels etc.

[Genady]

I am receiving offers for solar panels and various configurations, with and without batteries. To make a decision I need to have a clear reason, why would I go for it. What are the possible reasons?

[exchemist]

28 minutes ago, Genady said:

I am receiving offers for solar panels and various configurations, with and without batteries. To make a decision I need to have a clear reason, why would I go for it. What are the possible reasons?

I should have the most obvious is lowering your carbon footprint so that you can look your children and grandchildren in the eye.  The economics will obviously depend on the payback period, which no doubt you can work out. And if you a certain type of person it can be just interesting to see how well it works, how the output varies and so on. So a kind of engineering toy -  but with the bonus of built-in virtue signalling.😁

[Genady]

47 minutes ago, exchemist said:

the most obvious is lowering your carbon footprint

This is an important reason. But it is somewhat reduced here, because about half of the electricity on the island is already produced by wind, and they plan to keep installing more turbines.

 

50 minutes ago, exchemist said:

it can be just interesting to see how well it works, how the output varies and so on.

Yes, it would be fun.

[exchemist]

Just now, Genady said:

This is an important reason. But it is somewhat reduced here, because about half of the electricity on the island is already produced by wind, and they plan to keep installing more turbines.

 

Yes, it would be fun.

I was forgetting you were on an island. If you are - or soon will be - getting predominantly green electricity already, then there may be little environmental advantage. In fact there could be a net disadvantage, due to the manufacture and transport of the panels.

[swansont]

There could be a financial advantage, as the solar should eventually pay for itself. There is also the benefit of having battery backup in the case of downed transmission lines or a blown transformer.

[Genady]

41 minutes ago, swansont said:

There could be a financial advantage, as the solar should eventually pay for itself.

Yes, in about 8 years. Nice, but would be more important for a younger person.

 

47 minutes ago, swansont said:

There is also the benefit of having battery backup in the case of downed transmission lines or a blown transformer.

This is a consideration. Maybe I should just buy batteries and keep them charged from the grid?

[Externet]

Hi.

Done that; am there.  Two years now since installed, have 5600W solar roof grid-tied system, no batteries. The good part, one more year to pay for the investment.

The convincing factor for me was am skilled in electrics and electronics, have the guts to climb to the roof,  wanting it for a long time, my roof is sloping south, have a trailer to go to the vendor and transport the equipment, and the adrenaline to calculate and install with no hurry everything alone by myself (3 days instead of half).    There is other important financial factors ( incentives and source of funds, and bought at a price-valley cash and tax deductible.  Incentives duration of 25 years and same longevity warranty and 100% export fares ! ! ) that made me decide doing it when I pushed everything together.

Until today, the system has delivered 10175 KWh to the utility.  Which is not production !  Production is dwelling consumption + delivery to the electric company, should be about twice but never did the figures. Sunny days, am 'exporting' ~30KWh.  It is just $3 daily, but am happy.

Never hired anyone to make a 'feasibility study' or a planner, or designer, or a lender, or an installer, or a transporter, or a electrician, or specialized expensive mounts and dozens of $9 screws, nor needed a city permit to do it.  That is what makes it expensive.  Feeding more and more mouths.  Your 8 year estimate can be cut to a third done by yourself + friends + family.

Respect to maintenance; it is zero with no batteries, and cheaper system too occupying no space.  Swept snow a couple of times.  Respect to uninterrupted supply in events of the utility, I don't give a peanut being an hour, or 5 with the utility 'down'  Makes it more real life to have a backup gas heater for such events. 

[Genady]

1 hour ago, Externet said:

Hi.

Done that; am there.  Two years now since installed, have 5600W solar roof grid-tied system, no batteries. The good part, one more year to pay for the investment.

The convincing factor for me was am skilled in electrics and electronics, have the guts to climb to the roof,  wanting it for a long time, my roof is sloping south, have a trailer to go to the vendor and transport the equipment, and the adrenaline to calculate and install with no hurry everything alone by myself (3 days instead of half).    There is other important financial factors ( incentives and source of funds, and bought at a price-valley cash and tax deductible.  Incentives duration of 25 years and same longevity warranty and 100% export fares ! ! ) that made me decide doing it when I pushed everything together.

Until today, the system has delivered 10175 KWh to the utility.  Which is not production !  Production is dwelling consumption + delivery to the electric company, should be about twice but never did the figures. Sunny days, am 'exporting' ~30KWh.  It is just $3 daily, but am happy.

Never hired anyone to make a 'feasibility study' or a planner, or designer, or a lender, or an installer, or a transporter, or a electrician, or specialized expensive mounts and dozens of $9 screws, nor needed a city permit to do it.  That is what makes it expensive.  Feeding more and more mouths.  Your 8 year estimate can be cut to a third done by yourself + friends + family.

Respect to maintenance; it is zero with no batteries, and cheaper system too occupying no space.  Swept snow a couple of times.  Respect to uninterrupted supply in events of the utility, I don't give a peanut being an hour, or 5 with the utility 'down'  Makes it more real life to have a backup gas heater for such events. 

Hi,

It was informative and helpful.

Thank you.

[Genady]

I have already decided for myself against this project. Today I've read this, additional drop pushing in the same direction: Solar panels - an eco-disaster waiting to happen? - BBC News

It also adds to what

On 5/16/2023 at 10:12 AM, exchemist said:

In fact there could be a net disadvantage, due to the manufacture and transport of the panels.

 

[TheVat]

Wind turbines are easier to recycle (and what I would install here, in one of the windiest states).  Even the fiberglass blades...

https://www.energy.gov/eere/wind/articles/carbon-rivers-makes-wind-turbine-blade-recycling-and-upcycling-reality-support

 

[exchemist]

1 hour ago, Genady said:

I have already decided for myself against this project. Today I've read this, additional drop pushing in the same direction: Solar panels - an eco-disaster waiting to happen? - BBC News

It also adds to what

 

Well actually I think that’s a bit of a non-story. All it says is we don’t have recycling capacity yet. But that’s to be expected, since the panels installed over the last decade won’t need replacing for another 15 years. Nobody is going to invest in a plant that will sit idle for years. 

[Genady]

26 minutes ago, exchemist said:

Well actually I think that’s a bit of a non-story. All it says is we don’t have recycling capacity yet. But that’s to be expected, since the panels installed over the last decade won’t need replacing for another 15 years. Nobody is going to invest in a plant that will sit idle for years. 

True. However, the transportation to recycling facilities and recycling process will add to the net disadvantage of initial manufacturing and transportation.

 

1 hour ago, TheVat said:

Wind turbines are easier to recycle (and what I would install here, in one of the windiest states).  Even the fiberglass blades...

https://www.energy.gov/eere/wind/articles/carbon-rivers-makes-wind-turbine-blade-recycling-and-upcycling-reality-support

 

Are there efficient wind turbines for individual use?

[Externet]

Go to your balcony, roof, backyard now and check how fast is the wind.  By installing one you could find a very expensive wind generator doing nothing.  Same daily, like 90% + of time ☹️  And not very pretty.

If you own a hilltop in the farmlands or a cliff, then I 🤐

7 hours ago, Genady said:

I have already decided for myself against this project. Today I've read this, additional drop pushing in the same direction: Solar panels - an eco-disaster waiting to happen? - BBC News

It also adds to what

 

Hello.  Am fully against the linked article point of view.  Nobody buys an automobile, matress, shoes, a house, clothing, computer because is easier to recycle.  There is maaaany important things in spending/investing than focusing on our garbage.

Besides, somehow, recyclers will make a profit.  Glass will be mixed in asphalt, aluminium will be reused as beer cans or something, conductors will conduct again, silicon will find a niche.

The platonic ideal of avoiding waste is very noble, but reality is waaaay different in this case.  I could bet the article author has never had a solar panel.

 

This is the balance to look for in the future, not the recoverable waste balance.

[Genady]

44 minutes ago, Externet said:

This is the balance to look for in the future, not the recoverable waste balance

I understand this. As I have mentioned above in this thread, here, where I live, almost half of electricity in the grid is already generated by wind, and the plan is to get 60% by 2025. That's why I consider other factors.

 

[Externet]

Nice!  Solar or wind, whatever survives hurricanes at that location is great choice. Very good if government ran, perhaps not so much for private generation.

[Genady]

4 minutes ago, Externet said:

Nice!  Solar or wind, whatever survives hurricanes at that location is great choice. Very good if government ran, perhaps not so much for private generation.

Yes, 100% government ran.

Regarding the hurricanes, look here (we are #2, in alphabetical order): 7 Hurricane-Free Caribbean Islands – Caribbean Blog (home.blog) 

[TheVat]

7 hours ago, Genady said:

 

Are there efficient wind turbines for individual use?

Questionable.  Your payback time is longer, some municipal codes restrict how high you can mount them (they work best at 25 ft. or more, either on a roof peak or a pole), and you do need to live somewhere pretty breezy (like maybe Bonaire, or South Dakota).  Where I live is, IIRC, one of the 5 windiest places in US, so I could probably break even on a unit that averaged 5 - 10 kwh/day (enough for our house) in ten to fifteen years.  So, seems like wind power is more efficient and cheaper when scaled up and served on a grid.  A municipality, for example, can pick an optimal location and put several large turbines there.  So far I'm content to spend the money on energy-efficient appliances, windows, lights, etc.  No roof climbing for me. 😀

[Genady]

12 hours ago, Externet said:

Very good if government ran, perhaps not so much for private generation.

Sorry @Externet, I've misread your statement above. I agree with you, as well as with

 

10 hours ago, TheVat said:

Your payback time is longer, some municipal codes restrict how high you can mount them (they work best at 25 ft. or more, either on a roof peak or a pole), and you do need to live somewhere pretty breezy (like maybe Bonaire, or South Dakota).  Where I live is, IIRC, one of the 5 windiest places in US, so I could probably break even on a unit that averaged 5 - 10 kwh/day (enough for our house) in ten to fifteen years.  So, seems like wind power is more efficient and cheaper when scaled up and served on a grid.  A municipality, for example, can pick an optimal location and put several large turbines there.  So far I'm content to spend the money on energy-efficient appliances, windows, lights, etc.  No roof climbing for me.

So, this "project" is off the table as well.