Frozen bread dough...

[Externet]

Greetings. 

At the supermarket bakery, I used for years to buy raw frozen french bread dough and bake it at home at my convenience.  It is the way they receive the dough from some supplier and they only bake with not much labor.

Today, a grumpy supervisor decided to not sell me anymore the bars of hard frozen dough at the baked price by some invented or not corporate decision.  I have to ask your expertise, on how to make it at home. Yes, frozen in dense bars form and keep until the baking craving day.  Works by leaving it to thaw a few hours and rises before putting it in the oven. 

Any expert around ?

[Mordred]

If I ever give you a recipe for baking (any) you would want to throw it into the nearest blackhole and count the information loss a blessing.

[geordief]

29 minutes ago, Externet said:

Greetings. 

At the supermarket bakery, I used for years to buy raw frozen french bread dough and bake it at home at my convenience.  It is the way they receive the dough from some supplier and they only bake with not much labor.

Today, a grumpy supervisor decided to not sell me anymore the bars of hard frozen dough at the baked price by some invented or not corporate decision.  I have to ask your expertise, on how to make it at home. Yes, frozen in dense bars form and keep until the baking craving day.  Works by leaving it to thaw a few hours and rises before putting it in the oven. 

Any expert around ?

I have been baking bread for  some 50 years and I never knew it was possible to freeze dough ,thaw it and let it rise.

 

I am going to guess  that you are right and am looking forward to replies from others so that I can incorporate  this technique into my burgeoning repertoire.

 

To date my best attempt has been to leave yeasted dough overnight in the fridge but the freezer may present an added convenience now that you have alerted me to the possibility.

[Externet]

Thanks for responding.  The frozen iron-hard, no-bubbles-in-it bars I used to buy were like 5cm x 3cm x 25cm long, machine formed and cut, yielding typical 8cm x 6cm x 30cm  loaves.

A search "frozen bread dough" only results found are on how to bake, not how it is made, and shopping.

---> https://www.webstaurantstore.com/richs-19-5-oz-french-bread-dough-case/876RICH03033.html

So the industry has perfected a process for the supermarket 'to do nearly nothing'  On your next visit to a supermarket, perhaps attempt to buy a frozen french dough bar to see it.  Some convincing saliva for the clerk may be needed.

[CharonY]

I had frozen bread dough only once, but fundamentally I would think that it does not require any specific treatment. Generally speaking, I would start with a regular bread recipe, go through the first rise (high yeast activity), punch it down, shape and freeze. 

It might make sense to add more yeast than normal so that after thawing there is enough activity.

 

[Externet]

In my ignorance am guessing the dough preparation should be done at much colder than 28C bakery 'room' temperatures; say by a 10C kitchen/machinery and ingredients, perhaps extra water.  Then extruded and frozen for packed delivery. 🤔

Edited May 26, 2023 by Externet

[Peterkin]

It freezes very well, provided you get it in the freezer before second proofing, and when you defrost, give it time to go through the rest of the process. So, that doesn't save you a whole lot of time over making it from scratch, which is cheaper. 

Water, salt, oil, flour, sugar, yeast. Don't let the salt touch the yeast. Mix really well, beat the hell out of it, let rise, beat it again, let rise some more, bake. 

You can make a lot better by using two kinds of flour, adding some flax or sunflower seed, eggs and milk, raisins or herbs... etc. There's a ton of free eg https://tastesbetterfromscratch.com/bread-recipe/ recipes available. It ain't rocket science.

I've got arthritic hands so I recently bought a bread machine. Haven't bought any in a store since. I figure to recoup the cost in less than a year and eat better. 

Edited May 26, 2023 by Peterkin

[geordief]

 

4 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

It freezes very well, provided you get it in the freezer before second proofing, and when you defrost, give it time to go through the rest of the process. So, that doesn't save you a whole lot of time over making it from scratch, which is cheaper. 

Water, salt, oil, flour, sugar, yeast. Don't let the salt touch the yeast. Mix really well, beat the hell out of it, let rise, beat it again, let rise some more, bake. 

You can make a lot better by using two kinds of flour, adding some flax or sunflower seed, eggs and milk, raisins or herbs... etc. There's a ton of free eg https://tastesbetterfromscratch.com/bread-recipe/ recipes available. It ain't rocket science.

Are you sure that is necessary? I haven't kneaded   the dough  for years now .I just mix the ingredients and wait for them to rise.

I don't bother with punching it down either...it just goes straight  into the tin and rises there the once(I have to catch it before it starts falling but even then it is tastes more or less the same)

 

I did used to knead it  but have noticed no difference since I stopped doing so and it saves a hell of a lot of time.

[Peterkin]

19 minutes ago, geordief said:

Are you sure that is necessary?

Maybe not. I found it made a better texture.

[geordief]

23 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

Maybe not. I found it made a better texture.

You mean more even?I like the chewey texture you get with sour dough  and I like the big  bubbles that I try to replicate (not too well) by making the dough more liquidy.

And it is so much less fuss (I don't get my hands all sticky-or feel worthy from all the physical pummeling)

Edited May 26, 2023 by geordief

[npts2020]

1 hour ago, Peterkin said:

I've got arthritic hands so I recently bought a bread machine.

Those things are fantastic. Dump all of the ingredients in before going to bed, set the timer and when you wake up you have fresh hot bread.

[Peterkin]

1 hour ago, geordief said:

And it is so much less fuss (I don't get my hands all sticky-or feel worthy from all the physical pummeling)

Maybe you have a very good mixer.

[CharonY]

No knead bread is usually uses higher hydration dough with slower fermentation (often by using less yeast), though. I am not sure whether that makes an issue if you want to freeze them. I can imagine that the product might become rather compact.

[geordief]

5 hours ago, CharonY said:

No knead bread is usually uses higher hydration dough with slower fermentation (often by using less yeast), though. I am not sure whether that makes an issue if you want to freeze them. I can imagine that the product might become rather compact.

I make it on a continuous basis(every day or two) .

I will put s bit of the next batch in the freezer and see how it works.

I don't use a mixer  just mix it all in the bowl with a wooden spoon and do not touch the dough with my hands..

[CharonY]

Empiricism to the rescue!

[geordief]

On 5/26/2023 at 4:20 PM, CharonY said:

Empiricism to the rescue!

My frozen loaf turned out fairly flat/heavy .Edible,though  and to others' taste fortunately.

 

It seems you have to give twice the amount of yeast to compensate for losses in the freezing process.

 

Not sure if I will do it again .I don't like too much of a yeasty taste.

[Externet]

What prevents the yeast from meeting death in sub-freezing temperatures ?

geordief :  How long did you thaw the frozen dough, and after thawed, how many hours rising at warmth before baking ?

[geordief]

50 minutes ago, Externet said:

What prevents the yeast from meeting death in sub-freezing temperatures ?

geordief :  How long did you thaw the frozen dough, and after thawed, how many hours rising at warmth before baking ?

I don't know ,but apparently  this only works with certain   kind of yeast you can buy(not the quick use kinds for example)

 

I first put the yeast in with the flour and waited until  it rose well.

Then I transferred some of it into a small bread tin and put it straight into the freezer 

 

It stayed there for around  18 hours  and then I took it out and left it to thaw out at  something like 30 ° Celsius for a good few hours until I could see that it was thawed  and waited for it to rise.(raised the temperature  to around body heat  when I could see it was starting to expand)

It did rise but quite a bit less than I expected and I have since seen on a website

https://www.thespruceeats.com/how-to-freeze-yeast-bread-dough-427560

that this is because some of the year dies as a result of the freezing

 

So I got a half risen loaf ,which is much nicer than a loaf that hasn't risen at all  but not as good as I would like.

 

The site I mentioned  above advises to double the quantity of yeast to get a normally risen loaf

 

[CharonY]

Kneading helps to form a matrix that gives the bread enough structure once yeast does its things. Without kneading, you can have a similar effect with a wetter dough and let the fermentation process to happen very slowly. So the assumption I had earlier is that if freeze no knead dough, you will collapse whatever happened in the first rise and structurally it might not recover as there is not enough activity left in the yeast.

A kneaded bread might be more resilient and even with less yeast activity one might retain some fluffiness (I would assume).

[geordief]

5 hours ago, CharonY said:

Kneading helps to form a matrix that gives the bread enough structure once yeast does its things. Without kneading, you can have a similar effect with a wetter dough and let the fermentation process to happen very slowly. So the assumption I had earlier is that if freeze no knead dough, you will collapse whatever happened in the first rise and structurally it might not recover as there is not enough activity left in the yeast.

A kneaded bread might be more resilient and even with less yeast activity one might retain some fluffiness (I would assume).

Next time I will make it less sloppy and give it a very light knead and see if it rises better.

[Externet]

10 hours ago, geordief said:

I first put the yeast in with the flour and waited until  it rose well.

Thanks.  Do not understand the above. Is that before freezing the dough ?  So you froze it after rising ?    I had the wrong belief that the dough would have to be quick frozen before any rising started and there would be zero rising until after thawed days after.

Cannot understand either "some of the yeast dies"  If all the yeast is exposed to the same adverse environment; how only some die ? 

Skidding nearly into off topic; if ..."I don't like too much of a yeasty taste."...  And the only thing yeast does is farting to produce bubbles;  how can I prepare french bread with baking powder instead; (a bubble maker too) with no yeasty taste ?  🤔

[geordief]

15 minutes ago, Externet said:

Thanks.  Do not understand the above. Is that before freezing the dough ?  So you froze it after rising ?    I had the wrong belief that the dough would have to be quick frozen before any rising started and there would be zero rising until after thawed days after.

Cannot understand either "some of the yeast dies"  If all the yeast is exposed to the same adverse environment; how only some die ? 

Skidding nearly into off topic; if ..."I don't like too much of a yeasty taste."...  And the only thing yeast does is farting to produce bubbles;  how can I prepare french bread with baking powder instead; (a bubble maker too) with no yeasty taste ?  🤔

Yes I let the  dough rise in a mixing bowl and ,without kneading I transferred it to two separate baking tins..

 

The first I let rise again in the usual way and baked ot in about  20 minutes  later when I could see it had risen as much as it was going to.

The second tin I put straight into the freezer with the dough in it having  collapsed  in the transferral process.

(So it had risen in the bowl at first but when it went into the freezer it had collapsed )

 

I took the second tin out again the following day  and waited for it to thaw out in its own time  and subsequently  to rise again.

I didn't touch it at all before it went into the oven

 

 

When I compared the two tins ' loaves the one that had been frozen was a lot heavier.

 

I don 't know why (if true) the freezing kills(or weakens?) only some  of the yeast...

 

You can also make bread with baking powders of various sorts.

 

They will not taste the same ,of course.

 

There are some flours that are unsuitable for yeast baking since they contain little gluten and ,with  them you have little choice but to go the baking  powder route.(or learn to like very heavy  or fairly heavy bread like Pumpernikel or other rye loaves)

[mistermack]

I can confirm that freezing yeast does kill most of the yeast, but not all. Why that should be I can only put down to natural variation. Maybe they could breed a strain that is more resistant to freezing. 

I used to make sourdough now and then. I got fed up feeding the dough culture all the time, so I froze it till I felt like making another loaf. It doesn't die, but it sometimes takes quite a bit of time to revive the yeast starter, with several episodes of feeding etc. So now I've quit the sourdough. It's fine, if you make a lot of bread, but not great for intermittent baking. And I find it hard to taste the difference, and find the rising unpredictable.

[Externet]

Thanks, geordief.

I suspect the dough that collapses does it because the gas pockets/bubbles shrink from decreased temperature in freezer (Charles' law) and no other influence from the yeast.

I will have to try preparing the dough with cold ingredients.  But I cannot tell which yeast type/brand to use that can survive a freezer.

To review what I did with the 'industrial' frozen dough from the supermarket :  Bought iron-hard frozen no-bubbles not-risen-before compact bars as they receive them.  Placed them in the off! oven rack to thaw for several hours 4, 5, 6... with the oven light bulb on to get some warmth and/or a litre of boiling water bowl at bottom.  Untouched, uncovered, tripled if not more its volume, baked, and good hot french bread resulted on time.

Same here; why some yeast dies and not all ¿?

Do not care much if taste would not be 'same' with baking powder instead.  But french bread has to be. 😋

Found these ---> https://www.tasteofhome.com/article/freezing-yeast-dough/

---> https://www.masterclass.com/articles/freezing-bread-dough

---> https://www.freezeit.co.uk/can-you-freeze-baguette-dough/

---> https://blogs.extension.iastate.edu/answerline/2022/03/29/freezing-yeast-dough/

Edited May 29, 2023 by Externet
Added links.

[geordief]

@Externet I typed  baguette "levure chimique" into Google and got this recipe for a baguette  made with baking powder

 

https://recette.com/baguette-avec-levure-chimique.htm

 

Can you put that page into Google translate?

 

Anyway it seems to use baking powder  along with the  ability of the dough (must be strong white  flour,I suppose) to rise under it's own steam at 35°

 

"Cette pâte à pain se prépare sans levure de boulanger et ne demande aucun pétrissage. Une simple levure chimique suffit pour réaliser de bonnes baguettes qui seront dévorées dès la sortie du four. Temps de repos : 1 heure et demie"

 

This bread dough is prepared without baker's yeast and does not require any kneading. A simple baking powder is enough to make good baguettes that will be devoured as soon as you leave the oven. Rest time: 1 hour and a half

 

1. Put the water to cool in the microwave (about 35 ° C) and wash (=dissolve?) the yeast. Pour into a bowl and add the flour and salt. Mix with the wooden spatula without kneading. 2. You then get a very sticky paste. Put a cloth on top to protect it and rest for 90 minutes. 3. When the dough has doubled in volume, start preheating the oven to 300°C by placing a bowl of water inside.

 

4. Place the dough on your floured worktop and form four mini baguettes. Place them on your lightly greased baking sheet and cook for 20 minutes. 5. Remove from the oven when the crust is blond. Enjoy warm preferably.

34 minutes ago, Externet said:

suspect the dough that collapses does it because the gas pockets/bubbles shrink from decreased temperature in freezer (Charles' law) and

No it collapsed because any rough handling will do that.It collapsed before I put it into the freezer and at the time I transferred it from the mixing bowl to the baking tin just before it went in the freezer.

Edited May 29, 2023 by geordief