informational diode

[hoola]

as a thought experiment, what if one of an entangled pair of particles were to fall into a black hole and it's partner is in a remote lab and is measured.  Would the black hole residing particle respond to it's partner as in the case of being separated by only distance, and not affect by the event horizon?  IOW, is non locality blocked if one particle is behind the horizon, forming a sort of informational diode to even this quantum effect?

Edited June 7, 2023 by hoola

[Genady]

They don't respond in any case.

[hoola]

in any case? I am considering the traditional case of mere separation of partcles vs. separation by an event horizon.

[Genady]

Yes, I understand. When they are merely separated, they don't respond either. This is what I mean.

[hoola]

yes, I am aware of that term being inaccurate technically, but I mean the out of phase parameter spin observations that occur in these experiments.

[Mordred]

Think of it this way Hoola, an entangled particle is entangled by a probability function. When one particle changes state it does not cause the other to change state. You can merely make predictions of state of the other particle by measuring the state of one of the pairs.

 Once a measurement is made the superposition wavefunction collapses.

So you cannot measure prior to sending a particle into the Bh. It's also highly unlikely the particle will not lose its entangled state due to the interference from the BH accretion disk.

Edited June 7, 2023 by Mordred

[hoola]

oh yes, this is a thought experiment only, and realize a physical test is probably impossible...thanks. What about a light cone barrier. If one particle was carried out of the light cone from it's partner,  would that theoretically disable entanglement?

Edited June 7, 2023 by hoola

[Mordred]

Light cone barrier?

 A light cone doesn't involve its own signals. In the case of the EH the particle undergoes a wide range of inference. Prime example being the gamma ray accretion jets that result from infalling matter.

[swansont]

21 minutes ago, hoola said:

oh yes, this is a thought experiment only, and realize a physical test is probably impossible...thanks. What about a light cone barrier. If one particle was carried out of the light cone from it's partner,  would that theoretically disable entanglement?

How does the particle get outside the light cone of its entangled partner?

[hoola]

with a clearly impossible thought experiment

[pzkpfw]

From Mordred:

"When one particle changes state it does not cause the other to change state. You can merely make predictions of state of the other particle by measuring the state of one of the pairs."

Say you have two marbles and you know one is Blue and one is Red.

You randomly get one and without looking at it - chuck it in that black hole, or send it far away in a rocket.

Later you look at the marble you still have. If it's Red you instantly know the one in the black hole, or far away, is Blue.

You didn't instantly make the other marble Blue.

 

[hoola]

I am proposing entangling the two balls in proximity, then moving ball 2 beyond ball one's light cone before measuring ball one.

Edited June 8, 2023 by hoola

[Genady]

As long as the particles are entangled, results of their measurements are correlated.

[hoola]

If the particles are entangled in this universe, that seems to hold, but what if one particle is somehow sent to an Everettian style other universe? Would that not defeat any possibility of correlation?

[Genady]

Just now, hoola said:

If the particles are entangled in this universe, that seems to hold, but what if one particle is somehow sent to an Everettian style other universe? Would that not defeat any possibility of correlation?

If they stay entangled, the correlation holds. 

[hoola]

if the Everett idea of infinite universes does apply, would that not affect the issue?

[Genady]

14 minutes ago, hoola said:

if the Everett idea of infinite universes does apply, would that not affect the issue?

Does it break QM? If it does not, then it does not.

[hoola]

ok, thanks

[MJ kihara]

13 hours ago, Mordred said:

an entangled particle is entangled by a probability function.

How do you get to entangle particles? The act of entangling and probability function which come first?

13 hours ago, Mordred said:

When one particle changes state it does not cause the other to change state.

Can entangled system used for communication?

[Mordred]

Typically entanglement will involve a particle to particle interaction  the most common method is particle pair creation such as through parametric down conversion using a beam splitter for photons.

The probability correlation function can then be determined by applying the various conservation laws such as conservation of charge, energy momentum, lepton number, isospin, color, flavor etc.

Entanglement can be used in communication for cryptology. However no communication exceeds c

 

[MJ kihara]

4 hours ago, Mordred said:

Entanglement can be used in communication for cryptology. However no communication exceeds c

Let's have hypothetical ship moving at c,carrying entanglement communication device and a radio communication device...after reaching proxima centauri approximately 4.2 light year away...the crew decide to communicate with people back on Earth using light signal(e.g radio device) then using entanglement device...which device will pass the communication first?

[swansont]

1 hour ago, MJ kihara said:

Let's have hypothetical ship moving at c,carrying entanglement communication device and a radio communication device...after reaching proxima centauri approximately 4.2 light year away...the crew decide to communicate with people back on Earth using light signal(e.g radio device) then using entanglement device...which device will pass the communication first?

A ship can’t move at c.

What is this “entanglement communication device”? If it involves sending photons, then the signals arrive at the same time.

[MJ kihara]

25 minutes ago, swansont said:

A ship can’t move at c.

What is this “entanglement communication device”? If it involves sending photons, then the signals arrive at the same time.

Radio device involves sending photons while entanglement communication device involves utilization of entanglement to communicate... which signal arrive first?

[Mordred]

The signal will never exceed c there is no ftl communication entangled or not. Hence why entanglement for communication is only practical for encryption.

[MigL]

Back to the OP.

In the 70s S Hawking proposed Hoola's mechanism as the source of Hawking Radiation, but it was found to violate a QM rule about information loss.
Not transfer, mind you, but loss of information about states of infalling particles, which is certainly a 'measure' of entanglement.

"It is now generally believed that information is preserved in black-hole evaporation.^[5][6] This means that the predictions of quantum mechanics are correct whereas Hawking's original argument that relied on general relativity must be corrected. However, views differ as to how, precisely, Hawking's calculation should be corrected.^[5][6][7][8] In recent years, several extensions of the original paradox have been explored. Taken together these puzzles about black hole evaporation have implications for how gravity and quantum mechanics must be combined, leading to the information paradox remaining an active field of research within quantum gravity."

See here      Black hole information paradox - Wikipedia