Language development in other Homos

[Saber]

Had the  other  Homos like Neandertals or Erectus's    who  lived as recent as like 100 - 200  K years ago  ever  developed languages ?

 

And if yes  how did we  know ?

Edited June 17, 2023 by Saber

[Genady]

12 minutes ago, Saber said:

Had the  other  Homos like Neandertals or Erectus's    who  lived as recent as like 100 - 200  K years ago  ever  developed languages ?

 

And if yes  how did we  know ?

I don't think we know.

[Saber]

6 minutes ago, Genady said:

I don't think we know.

how  about our selves ?   do  we know when we  have developed our first  languages ?    

And another question   although it may  sound bizzare and may  make people  say  its a scientific site  and  you  are not allowed to  talk  about your thoughts here....

Do  you  think we would some day be able to  extract recorded sound in objects like fossils........i mean  sound is a physical  gas wave............it  would  certainly  have effect on anything it  hits.............right ? Do  we have any  scientific  evidence that sound waves has  effects on molecules of  solid objects ?   And those  effects  could be  read (  extracted )  later and decoded back to  sound ?

[Genady]

2 minutes ago, Saber said:

how  about our selves ?   do  we know when we  have developed our first  languages ?

No. I don't think we do.

 

2 minutes ago, Saber said:

Do  you  think we would some day be able to  extract recorded sound in objects like fossils........i mean  sound is a physical  gas wave............it  would  certainly  have effect on anything it  hits.............right ? Do  we have any  scientific  evidence that sound waves has  effects on molecules of  solid objects ?   And those  effects  could be  read (  extracted )  later and decoded back to  sound ?

Even if we could, we would recover a sum of all sounds that hit the object throughout history. That would be just noise.

[Saber]

Just now, Genady said:

No. I don't think we do.

 

Even if we could, we would recover a sum of all sounds that hit the object throughout history. That would be just noise.

Well if such a thing  is possible  that would be  the  first &  early  stages of that  tech.............maybe   developing it  would lead  to  the ability  to separate the  sounds...

[Genady]

14 minutes ago, Saber said:

Well if such a thing  is possible  that would be  the  first &  early  stages of that  tech.............maybe   developing it  would lead  to  the ability  to separate the  sounds...

If it were possible, then police work would be very easy. Take a piece of a suspect's skin and listen to all their past conversations.

[iNow]

Depends on how you define language. Apes, wolves, whales, elephants, squirrels, birds, even ants and bees have active communication systems.

[Saber]

1 hour ago, Genady said:

If it were possible, then police work would be very easy. Take a piece of a suspect's skin and listen to all their past conversations.

Police ??

   If  its  gets done  we have to   re write the  whole   political  history  of man kind.....(*  and  maybe thats  why  we havnt  done it yet or maybe  we  ordinary people  think  we havnt )    ..........And   we  get a whole new level  of comprehension of the  natural history  of our planet and  maybe the rest of the universe...............

 

1 hour ago, iNow said:

Depends on how you define language. Apes, wolves, whales, elephants, squirrels, birds, even ants and bees have active communication systems.

Hmmm    you  know @  first  certainly .......humanoids  were @ the level of sounds too........

But later they  ( we )  have  evolved up  to  having words.............first  maybe  names  for things........then  later  verbs  ( words for acts )   then   we  must  have tried  to  put  these  together  and  form  sentences.........thats the  point where basic and simple   grammar was  forming.......

 

I meant that  point......by  having a language..........

 

By the  way  another question we  have discovered or in other words  distinguished letters  later right ? when  we were developing  alphabetical systems  .......was that  the  time  people had to  separate each  sound in  all the words and assign a  symbol  for each ?

When i  was like 10 i  knew english  besides my own language ( Farsi )  i  once noticed  that  the word   ( Worm ) and its  word in Farsi  ( KERM ) sound  a lot  like each  other also  i  remember thinking  that  those words  sound   squishy  and mushy  like the  locomotion of the  worm  and   thus  i thought  maybe  these  two  words  have a common  root........

I remember having a little note book  that  i wrote all the  words that i though  sound a lot like each other  in both  languages........but   i  lost that note book ..later

[Genady]

6 hours ago, Saber said:

maybe thats  why  we havnt  done it yet or maybe  we  ordinary people  think  we havnt

Maybe it is in principle impossible.

[swansont]

!

Moderator Note

Discussion of waves has been split

https://www.scienceforums.net/topic/131871-waves-split-from-language-development-in-other-homos/

 

 

[mistermack]

There are indirect indications of language, besides sound itself. The fossilized skull can indicate developed areas of the brain that handle speech. I think it's called Broca's area from memory. There's also a development called a descended larynx, which can I think be interpreted from fossil bones. This was a development that aided voluntary breath control, which is essential for speech. Again from memory, these things are found to exist in earlier versions of homo, giving a pretty strong indication that speech is a pretty old feature in human ancestry, not recent. There is debate about this stuff. For instance, there is a difference of opinion as to whether Neanderthals had full speech. A descended larynx isn't unique to humans either, so these are indications only, not black and white proof of anything. We have a bone in the neck called the hyoid, that gives an indication of whether the larynx is descended or not, but it's just one more clue, not conclusive of anything.

My own conclusion, from back when I was reading up on this stuff, was that speech is more ancient than we currently suspect. I haven't seen much to change that opinion since, but it's still just my overall impression.

[studiot]

19 hours ago, Saber said:

Do  you  think we would some day be able to  extract recorded sound in objects like fossils........i mean  sound is a physical  gas wave............it  would  certainly  have effect on anything it  hits.............right ? Do  we have any  scientific  evidence that sound waves has  effects on molecules of  solid objects ?   And those  effects  could be  read (  extracted )  later and decoded back to  sound ?

This is not a silly idea but nature does not work quite like that however it does actually happen in nature.

Since this thread has been split I will answer it in the split off thread.

 

Instead I will simply reply to the thread topic which is about language.

 

Firstly language is more than sounds ie speech.

Language is also about the way we think of things. Even two people from the same culture speaking the same language often mean somewhat different meaning by the same 

language statement,  Also spoken and written language tend to been a bit different as well.

 

Secondly it is known (David Attenborough recently had a right up to date program on this) that many species communicate with each other by sounds and other means.

So it would be unreasonable to expect that other hominoid species do / did not also do this.

[Genady]

On 6/17/2023 at 12:17 AM, Saber said:

the word   ( Worm ) and its  word in Farsi  ( KERM ) sound  a lot  like each  other also  i  remember thinking  that  those words  sound   squishy  and mushy  like the  locomotion of the  worm  and   thus  i thought  maybe  these  two  words  have a common  root........

These words might have a common origin since both English and Persian languages have a common ancestor, Proto-Indo-European language, aka PIE.

However, I think that a connection is much more convoluted than the sounds being similar or "squishy and mushy". Look at the etymology of the English word:

Quote

worm (n.)

Old English wurm, variant of wyrm "serpent, snake, dragon, reptile," also in later Old English "earthworm," from Proto-Germanic *wurmiz (source also of Old Saxon, Old High German, German wurm, Old Frisian and Dutch worm, Old Norse ormr, Gothic waurms "serpent, worm"), from PIE *wrmi- "worm" (source also of Greek rhomos, Latin vermis "worm," Old Russian vermie "insects," Lithuanian varmas "insect, gnat"), from PIE *wrmi- "worm," from root *wer- (2) "to turn, bend."

The ancient category of these was much more extensive than the modern, scientific, one and included serpents, scorpions, maggots, and the supposed causes of certain diseases. 

...

*wer- (2)

 

Proto-Indo-European root forming words meaning "to turn, bend."

It forms all or part of: adverse; anniversary; avert; awry; controversy; converge; converse (adj.) "exact opposite;" convert; diverge; divert; evert; extroversion; extrovert; gaiter; introrse; introvert; invert; inward; malversation; obverse; peevish; pervert; prose; raphe; reverberate; revert; rhabdomancy; rhapsody; rhombus; ribald; sinistrorse; stalwart; subvert; tergiversate; transverse; universe; verbena; verge (v.1) "tend, incline;" vermeil; vermicelli; vermicular; vermiform; vermin; versatile; verse (n.) "poetry;" version; verst; versus; vertebra; vertex; vertigo; vervain; vortex; -ward; warp; weird; worm; worry; worth (adj.) "significant, valuable, of value;" worth (v.) "to come to be;" wrangle; wrap; wrath; wreath; wrench; wrest; wrestle; wriggle; wring; wrinkle; wrist; writhe; wrong; wroth; wry.

It is the hypothetical source of/evidence for its existence is provided by: Sanskrit vartate "turns round, rolls;" Avestan varet- "to turn;" Hittite hurki- "wheel;" Greek rhatane "stirrer, ladle;" Latin vertere (frequentative versare) "to turn, turn back, be turned; convert, transform, translate; be changed," versus "turned toward or against;" Old Church Slavonic vrŭteti "to turn, roll," Russian vreteno "spindle, distaff;" Lithuanian verčiu, versti "to turn;" German werden, Old English weorðan "to become;" Old English -weard "toward," originally "turned toward," weorthan "to befall," wyrd "fate, destiny," literally "what befalls one;" Welsh gwerthyd "spindle, distaff;" Old Irish frith "against."

(worm | Etymology, origin and meaning of worm by etymonline)

[Genady]

On 6/17/2023 at 12:17 AM, Saber said:

By the  way  another question we  have discovered or in other words  distinguished letters  later right ? when  we were developing  alphabetical systems  .......was that  the  time  people had to  separate each  sound in  all the words and assign a  symbol  for each ?

The alphabet based writing, i.e., writing based on how words sound, appeared about 4000 years ago. Before that, writing did not represent how the words sound, but rather represented objects that the words refer to.

The alphabet did not evolve from separating sounds, but rather from the previous symbols representing objects. For example, a letter for the sound "A" evolved from a symbol that represented an object for which the word started with the sound "A".

History of the alphabet - Wikipedia

Edited June 18, 2023 by Genady

[Saber]

On 6/18/2023 at 1:23 AM, studiot said:

Language is also about the way we think of things. Even two people from the same culture speaking the same language often mean somewhat different meaning by the same 

I'v   always  thought  many people  simply  only hear some  sounds when some one else speaks.....................And  if  i developed that ability in my self  my mental health  would be much better..............

 

 

[iNow]

We all use heuristics. In that regard, you’re not wrong 

https://asana.com/resources/heuristics#

[Saber]

7 minutes ago, iNow said:

We all use heuristics. In that regard, you’re not wrong 

https://asana.com/resources/heuristics#

I  read it    but i  have to  go  deep on it  after work

[Saber]

On 6/19/2023 at 4:52 AM, iNow said:

We all use heuristics. In that regard, you’re not wrong 

https://asana.com/resources/heuristics#

I read it  deeply and with concentration  today .........and  for  my self  i really  dont think  i use  them.......but  i cant   judge  and give points to  my  elf  somebody  else  who is on  constant relation  with me  must  do it.....

I  dont want to  derail the thread for the second time.............but ......i have a question
in the  brain  the  Medulla  Oblongata * have  i  wrote it right ?     does the automated  physical  jobs     like   when  you  want to  learn to do something as you are learning it your brain is in charge..................and  after you have learned it  the automated process is handed to the Medulla O.     like driving  or  cycling

If im  right     Is the heuristics   like that too ? Only in the mental phase

Edited June 22, 2023 by Saber

[iNow]

3 hours ago, Saber said:

I read it  deeply and with concentration  today .........and  for  my self  i really  dont think  i use  them

You certainly do

3 hours ago, Saber said:

and  after you have learned it  the automated process is handed to the Medulla O.     like driving  or  cycling

No. It’s more complex than that. 

[Saber]

1 minute ago, iNow said:

You certainly do

These are examples of  attitudes and  posts that if  i write  i  would receive negative reps & penalties.....
And also  if  i show any  objection to this type of attitude  against myself i  would again  receive the same  behavior  from some members here

[Genady]

20 minutes ago, Saber said:

These are examples of  attitudes and  posts that if  i write  i  would receive negative reps & penalties.....
And also  if  i show any  objection to this type of attitude  against myself i  would again  receive the same  behavior  from some members here

I don't see anything wrong with his post.

You said, "I really don't think that I use heuristics." He replied, "You certainly use them."

I don't understand what attitude it is an example of or what is there against yourself.

[iNow]

12 hours ago, Saber said:

These are examples of  attitudes and  posts that if  i write  i  would receive negative reps & penalties.....
And also  if  i show any  objection to this type of attitude  against myself i  would again  receive the same  behavior  from some members here

You can perceive whatever you want, this persecution complex you seem to experience is limiting your ability to learn and correct errors in thinking. It's not personal when I or others correct you. It's a gift. I'm sharing with you ways you can be more accurate and better, and you're responding to that gift by pretending you've been attacked. That's a You problem, not a Me problem.