TFG or That Florida Guy? Either way, can the GOP win in 2024?

[CharonY]

3 hours ago, zapatos said:

I disagree with this. The angry far right is always there. I guess the Tea Party was the last manifestation. But things were better then as no one like Trump made it to the White House. Not many people elected by the far right are stupid enough to hurt our country like Trump did and continues to do. If you cut the head off the snake the body may still squirm and flail about, but it is much less dangerous without the head. MAGA without someone willing to overthrow the government is simply a difference of opinion conveyed with anger.

In my mind it actually shows thar the system is so broken that even (or perhaps especially) an inept person could create that mess. It was always ready to break out, but establishment had a tempering effect. But just find someone who does not give a darn (National Rally in France, AfD, PiS, and so on) and they have a path to power, regardless of their political abilities. I mean, this neither unique for the US, nor history.

Find a more capable and temperate, things may improve for a while,but come inflation, or recession or pandemic and folks start looking for a strongman again and the jackpots come out again.

[StringJunky]

17 minutes ago, CharonY said:

In my mind it actually shows thar the system is so broken that even (or perhaps especially) an inept person could create that mess. It was always ready to break out, but establishment had a tempering effect. But just find someone who does not give a darn (National Rally in France, AfD, PiS, and so on) and they have a path to power, regardless of their political abilities. I mean, this neither unique for the US, nor history.

Find a more capable and temperate, things may improve for a while,but come inflation, or recession or pandemic and folks start looking for a strongman again and the jackpots come out again.

People tend to vote for who they think might help them in the next Legislative session. Thinking of the swingers here.

[iNow]

16 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

People tend to vote for who they think might help them in the next Legislative session. Thinking of the swingers here.

Perhaps that was once true, but I don’t think it is anymore.

Surely exceptions exist, but in terms of median behavior it seems to me that folks vote for the candidate who hates the same enemies / respects the same values they do. 

If legislative output and laws in their self interest were deciding factors, Biden and Obama would both have been far more popular. 

[CharonY]

The obvious thing is that there is always a mix. There are well-informed voters who do somewhat rational decisions, but they are likely a smaller segment and a bit more concentrated in the more educated segment. But ultimately, they too are not really unbiased.

On the other end, there is a solid proportion of grievance voters (perhaps around 20%?). The advantage of tapping into those is that you can do that independent of actual policies, as it is mostly perception-based. And apparently angry people do turn up to vote. I will also say that the angry segment is getting supercharged by social media and the increasing distrust of mainstream media, politicians and often just facts.

It has never been easier to make folks afraid of something.

[iNow]

14 minutes ago, CharonY said:

It has never been easier to make folks afraid of something.

The right would say the same thing and cite global mask and vaccine response to Covid as their reason. 

[StringJunky]

41 minutes ago, iNow said:

The right would say the same thing and cite global mask and vaccine response to Covid as their reason. 

The introduction of AI into social media could make it worse or better. Once it knows the social media landscape, it can multi-task much better on obvious moderation issues.

[iNow]

3 hours ago, zapatos said:

[DeSantis] doesn't strike me as someone who would purposely do structural damage to his country simply for his own benefit.

I need more data before joining you in that conclusion 

1 minute ago, StringJunky said:

The introduction of AI into social media could make it worse or better.

Well… That narrows it down quite a bit.  

[StringJunky]

2 minutes ago, iNow said:

I need more data before joining you in that conclusion 

Well… That narrows it down quite a bit.  

It's a new variable that is emerging.

[iNow]

No doubt. New weapon in the fight like when iPhone came out. Changed stuff we didn’t even realize could be changed. 

[StringJunky]

1 hour ago, iNow said:

No doubt. New weapon in the fight like when iPhone came out. Changed stuff we didn’t even realize could be changed. 

I think FB is the original source where the main shit metastasized from.

[CharonY]

3 hours ago, iNow said:

The right would say the same thing and cite global mask and vaccine response to Covid as their reason. 

Funnily the right did that and then made folks afraid of the vaccine. And only one that was deliberate false information.

[StringJunky]

8 hours ago, zapatos said:

I don't think it's likely either but the impact would be significant which is why he still manages to give me heartburn occasionally. . I'm also not likely to die next year but if I did it would really put a crimp in my schedule. 🤪

The effect is global. I hope he gets his monogrammed Dior orange boiler suit and concrete bed and table before then. He deserves the Supermax prison schedule.

Edited June 19, 2023 by StringJunky

[iNow]

5 hours ago, StringJunky said:

The effect is global. I hope he gets his monogrammed Dior orange boiler suit and concrete bed and table before then. He deserves the Supermax prison schedule.

This likely won’t happen before the 2024 presidential election. His lawyers will throw all sand and wrenches possible into the gears of justice to slow things down. 

[StringJunky]

3 minutes ago, iNow said:

This likely won’t happen before the 2024 presidential election. His lawyers will throw all sand and wrenches possible into the gears of justice to slow things down. 

I just thought: I know more about your politicians than I do about ours! I notice he's shedding lawyers like dandruff.

20 minutes ago, iNow said:

This likely won’t happen before the 2024 presidential election. His lawyers will throw all sand and wrenches possible into the gears of justice to slow things down. 

As long as it does happen. 

[TheVat]

13 hours ago, zapatos said:

I may be mistaken, but while DeSantis as POTUS would likely do many things I object to, he doesn't strike me as someone who would purposely do structural damage to his country simply for his own benefit.

Leaving aside that DeS appears to be holding a rifle pointed at his own feet and may self-defeat early (I really didn't intend that pun), I'm curious how you came to that view of DeS' relative benignity.  

43 minutes ago, iNow said:

This likely won’t happen before the 2024 presidential election. His lawyers will throw all sand and wrenches possible into the gears of justice to slow things down. 

And succeed, in the documents case, given who the judge is.  I think there's a case to be made that TFG is only running to get immunity starting in January 2025.  

[iNow]

15 minutes ago, TheVat said:

I think there's a case to be made that TFG is only running to get immunity starting in January 2025

Or to ensure Putin and the Saudis and whomever else appoint him to be the figurehead of whatever extremist new world order they’re trying to buildout and supersede / circumvent local governance /NWOconspiracy /thisisbiggerthanUSA

[zapatos]

41 minutes ago, TheVat said:

Leaving aside that DeS appears to be holding a rifle pointed at his own feet and may self-defeat early (I really didn't intend that pun), I'm curious how you came to that view of DeS' relative benignity.

DeSantis appears to me to be similar to most politicians on the far right. He is for the right things (family, American flags, white people) and is against whatever the boogeyman of the day happens to be (lesbians in cartoons, any group that does not have a large voting block). He also seems to try to get his way in a legal manner. I don't see him trying to undermine his state's judicial system, police, or interstate trade. His political actions are mostly for show, sending a plane load of migrants here or there, using Disney Script in his campaign. Surely he is doing things that push the envelope, but nothing more than others have done, and nothing that causes permanent harm.

[Phi for All]

3 minutes ago, zapatos said:

DeSantis appears to me to be similar to most politicians on the far right. He is for the right things (family, American flags, white people) and is against whatever the boogeyman of the day happens to be (lesbians in cartoons, any group that does not have a large voting block). He also seems to try to get his way in a legal manner. I don't see him trying to undermine his state's judicial system, police, or interstate trade. His political actions are mostly for show, sending a plane load of migrants here or there, using Disney Script in his campaign. Surely he is doing things that push the envelope, but nothing more than others have done, and nothing that causes permanent harm.

He definitely has fascist tendencies, which is true of many Republicans right now. It raised a big red flag for me when he revived the Florida State Guard and then funded them big time: https://www.newsweek.com/ron-desantis-100m-private-florida-army-raises-questions-1786877

Quote

 

DeSantis revived the Florida State Guard (which was originally created for home defense during World War II) in 2022, and is now seeking to expand it from 400 soldiers to 1,500, saying it is needed to help with emergency response measures and to back up the Florida National Guard.

Unlike the Florida National Guard, which can be called up by the President, the State Guard cannot.

 

 

[iNow]

5 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

It raised a big red flag for me when he revived the Florida State Guard and then funded them big time

What, you mean the DeSantis controlled private army that he tripled in size despite the lack of obvious need or reason? Nah… nothing to see here, folks. Move along. 

[StringJunky]

Why don't you just split into fifty countries?

Edited June 19, 2023 by StringJunky

[Phi for All]

27 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Why don't you just split into fifty countries?

I think a big part of the right wants exactly that, including the MAGA crowd. They rail against big federal government, and fail to understand just how big their state government would have to be to keep their heads above water. 

And part of the uber-wealthy strategy seems to be to divide us into the smallest possible units so we have no power and have to buy everything separately. Imagine the cost if every state has to become its own country?

[geordief]

2 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

I think a big part of the right wants exactly that, including the MAGA crowd. They rail against big federal government, and fail to understand just how big their state government would have to be to keep their heads above water. 

And part of the uber-wealthy strategy seems to be to divide us into the smallest possible units so we have no power and have to buy everything separately. Imagine the cost if every state has to become its own country?

Why is that different from other small countries?

Is Australia  too small?

Ukraine?

I have thought for some time that USA is a poor example for democracy(as in "not really one") and  might be too big for its citizens to feel they were a part of a community. 

 

I feel uncomfortable if the Right in USA  is in favour of it (for now) but I didn't get the idea from them.

[Janus]

15 hours ago, zapatos said:

I may be mistaken, but while DeSantis as POTUS would likely do many things I object to, he doesn't strike me as someone who would purposely do structural damage to his country simply for his own benefit.

Are we talking about the same guy who went to war with Disney, one of his state's largest economic drivers, just because they disagreed with one of his policies? 

[zapatos]

6 minutes ago, Janus said:

Are we talking about the same guy who went to war with Disney, one of his state's largest economic drivers, just because they disagreed with one of his policies? 

Yes. Do you find he is purposely doing structural damage to his state and/or the institutions of government? Seems more like he is doing this for show to let people know he is an anti-woke warrior.

[Phi for All]

19 minutes ago, geordief said:

Why is that different from other small countries?

I wasn't trying to mark a difference. I don't see your point. Name another big country that split up into 50 smaller countries. 

19 minutes ago, geordief said:

Is Australia  too small?

Ukraine?

You're going to have to explain the correlation to the topic for me, sorry.

19 minutes ago, geordief said:

I have thought for some time that USA is a poor example for democracy(as in "not really one") and  might be too big for its citizens to feel they were a part of a community. 

I can agree with the "poor example" part, but I don't think the size has as much to do with it as the systems that oppress the majority of citizens. A LOT of money has been spent keeping people from forming communities, in the sense of common people coming together for a cause.

19 minutes ago, geordief said:

I feel uncomfortable if the Right in USA  is in favour of it (for now) but I didn't get the idea from them.

"The Right" in the USA is hardly a cohesive unit. Like "the Left", it's difficult to put every American in one of only two boxes. I honestly think the "Ignorant Right" is the group that thinks we should be separate states.