English?

[iNow]

1 minute ago, Phi for All said:

What's archaic is words that are longer than they need to be. 

They sometimes beat us there, too. Calling it a lift instead of an elevator is FAR more efficient. Or boot instead of trunk. 

[Phi for All]

7 minutes ago, iNow said:

NOTE: I've had some extremely intelligent friends who suffered from a bit of dyslexia. They seemed to struggle a bit with using the correct homonym, as well. Anecdotal, and correlation isn't causation, but possibly connected. 

I've noticed this as well. Very intelligent and successful, but miss the spelling of fairly simple words, or don't bother with punctuation other than periods, exclamation points, and question marks. I've always thought it was because of spellcheckers.

[StringJunky]

1 minute ago, iNow said:

They sometimes beat us there, too. Calling it a lift instead of an elevator is FAR more efficient. Or boot instead of trunk. 

An elevator is the moving stairs here.

[Phi for All]

2 minutes ago, iNow said:

They sometimes beat us there, too. Calling it a lift instead of an elevator is FAR more efficient. Or boot instead of trunk. 

That's another subject entirely, but I think it evens out. We get "tired" but they get "knackered".

The UK and US also have some contradictory definitions for the same words. For instance, if you suggest that a subject for the meeting be "tabled", if you're in the US it means you want to postpone or cancel the subject, but in the UK it means you want it brought to the table.

[Peterkin]

48 minutes ago, Genady said:

Yes to all

Yes, a) b) and c) are all present among the many English-speakers who post on the internet, from whatever their current location happens to be.

Many never knew the rules in the first place, or were taught the rules but not the reasons or how to discern which application is appropriate. Many others were taught in middle school and have since forgotten. Many do not care. Some never knew and don't care; some have forgotten and don't care. I assume (perhaps incorrectly) that most of those who do care look up the correct usage before making their remarks public - but they, too, may err and fail to notioce, or lack the time to proofread.

[TheVat]

The irregularities of English must be a challenge to those who learn ESL.  One ought to know it's tough to cough when you eat dough on a shaky bough in a slough.   

VtT is possibly also a culprit, in cases where the misspelled word has a homophone. (like the there/their example) I wood never use it bee cuz of that.

There once was a girl in the choir,
Whose voice rose up higher and higher,
Till it reached such a height,
It went clear out of sight,
And they found it next day in the spire.

[John Cuthber]

41 minutes ago, TheVat said:

ESL

English as a second language?

There is no such thing as "American English". There is English; and there are mistakes.

I suspect that a large part of the actual answer to the original question
 

  

7 hours ago, Genady said:

...why so many native English speakers so often misuse words like their/ there/ they're? 

is a fall in the expenditure on education.

4 hours ago, Externet said:

NO, languages do not evolve. 

Yes they do.

It means "change" not "improve"

[iNow]

3 hours ago, StringJunky said:

An elevator is the moving stairs here.

Listen, there's no need to escalate! lol

[StringJunky]

8 minutes ago, iNow said:

Listen, there's no need to escalate! lol

That's  it, it is escalator! Been a while since I've been on one. Mixing with Americans is messing with my language.  

[Genady]

3 hours ago, Phi for All said:

My personal rule about "their" and "there"? Decide if it's a person or a place that's being talked about.

To me, 'their' goes with 'they' while 'there' goes with 'here'.

1 hour ago, TheVat said:

The irregularities of English must be a challenge to those who learn ESL.  One ought to know it's tough to cough when you eat dough on a shaky bough in a slough.

I didn't consider it a big challenge, I saw it rather as learning two very closely related sets of words: one, how to say it, another, how to spell it. Maybe it is in fact easier to ESL learners, as we learn speech and writing at the same time, while native speakers speak first and learn writing as an extension later.

[TheVat]

56 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

There is no such thing as "American English". There is English; and there are mistakes.

Haha.  Like the superfluous "u"?  It's odd behavior.  Or behaviour.

My guess is that English will change towards more phonetic spellings.  Mass marketing tends already towards that in the US, e.g. doughnut to donut.  Perhaps not a good trend in a language that has so many homophones.  At least now I can distinguish write, right, rite and wright.  

22 minutes ago, Genady said:

 

I didn't consider it a big challenge, I saw it rather as learning two very closely related sets of words: one, how to say it, another, how to spell it. Maybe it is in fact easier to ESL learners, as we learn speech and writing at the same time, while native speakers speak first and learn writing as an extension later.

Yes, there's a line in George Bernard Shaw's Pygmalion - "Her English is too good, which clearly indicates that she is foreign."

 

[StringJunky]

9 minutes ago, TheVat said:

Haha.  Like the superfluous "u"?  It's odd behavior.  Or behaviour.

My guess is that English will change towards more phonetic spellings.  Mass marketing tends already towards that in the US, e.g. doughnut to donut.  Perhaps not a good trend in a language that has so many homophones.  At least now I can distinguish write, right, rite and wright.  

'Behaviour' looks French, so the 'u'.

Quote

behavior (n.)
"manner of behaving (whether good or bad), conduct, manners," late 15c., essentially from behave, but with ending from Middle English havour "possession," a word altered (by influence of have) from aver, noun use of Old French verb aveir "to have."

also from late 15c.

 

Edited July 12, 2023 by StringJunky

[Genady]

8 minutes ago, TheVat said:

Yes, there's a line in George Bernard Shaw's Pygmalion - "Her English is too good, which clearly indicates that she is foreign."

 

[TheVat]

3 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Behaviour' looks French, so the 'u'.

 

Makes sense.   British are helping preserve the historical roots of those words.  Most of those ones we Yanks drop the U from were probably French imports, like colour, honour, valour, humour, etc.  

[sethoflagos]

8 hours ago, Genady said:

As a non-native English speaker, I'd like to understand why so many native English speakers so often misuse words like their/ there/ they're? 

This is a typo that I make all too frequently.

I believe that it's because I've written or typed these words so many thousands of times that I don't need to think about the individual letters; the pattern for typing the entire word is firmly ingrained in muscle memory and can be reproduced automatically as a single unit. Exactly the same way an experienced musician can execute fast scales and arpeggios without thinking about the individual notes. 

The problem is that these words are also homophones, so if the trigger for generating the motor pattern is the sound of the word in your head, the brain has three different patterns to pick from. Inevitably, it may pick the wrong one from time to time. 

Also none of these examples are typically emphasised in a sentence, and the mind is likely to be focussed elsewhere. So I can't see myself confusing weir & we're for example, though I might have to watch myself with wares, wears & where's.

Those who dismiss such errors as illiteracy or laziness might perhaps take a quick glance into a mirror.  

 

[Genady]

6 minutes ago, sethoflagos said:

if the trigger for generating the motor pattern is the sound of the word in your head

Isn't a concept the trigger for generating both the sound and the motor pattern of the word, among many other related aspects, such as visual images, emotions, memories, etc. ?

[sethoflagos]

11 minutes ago, Genady said:

Isn't a concept the trigger for generating both the sound and the motor pattern of the word, among many other related aspects, such as visual images, emotions, memories, etc. ?

It almost certainly varies with the individual and the context. 

I've considered this subject more in relation to musical performance where there is quite a variety of cues influencing the mechanical execution (and many more body parts having to act in synchrony). I think typing is quite a bit simpler, and since I invariably dictate each phrase (in my mind) while I type, I think the main motor cue must be the sound picture of the word. The vast majority of my written output during adult life has been in formal technical English reporting, so not so much room for emotion and nostalgic reminiscence there. 

Others may differ. The richness of life lies in its diversity and all that. 

[Genady]

2 minutes ago, sethoflagos said:

It almost certainly varies with the individual and the context.

Perhaps it is so.

I have a kind of screen in my mind, where a written text continually runs, and I read from it when I speak. So, I often make pronunciation mistakes.

[sethoflagos]

18 minutes ago, Genady said:

Perhaps it is so.

I have a kind of screen in my mind, where a written text continually runs, and I read from it when I speak. So, I often make pronunciation mistakes.

Same for me if I were trying to compose a sentence in French for example. I would need to see each written word in my mind's eye.

I don't need that for my native language where much of the composition effort can run on autopilot.    

[joigus]

7 hours ago, Externet said:

And whoever says that English is evolving :  NO, languages do not evolve.  Languages are degenerated and contaminated by lazy ignorants.  Spell check ?  Wait until A.I. takes over.

I č ne cnēƿ sē

According to my dictionary at hand, I've answered you in English, only Old English. If English was evolving in the seventh century, I see no reason to assume it's not doing so right now. What's probably true is that the path and the patterns, and the speed of change, are different, as communities today interact in very different ways than they used to do back then.

Of course languages evolve. Centuries upon centuries of 'contamination' are perceived as 'evolution' when a sufficient number of people perceived as educated adopt those ways of expression, and refine them to remove ambiguity and add nuances. Language is very plastic. There is no such thing as the right way to say things.

I'm no expert, so don't take anything I say on authority, of course. But I've interacted with experts enough to know that something like this is what's known to be the ongoing process of language evolution.

7 hours ago, zapatos said:

My son will occasionally use the incorrect spelling when texting. I once called him out on it and he said he knows the correct word. It is just that when communicating with certain people (parents, friends) it is easier to not switch screens to find the apostrophe, so he knowingly spells it wrong. He also stated that he would never do such a thing when inappropriate, such as at work.

Agreed. Language is a two-pronged process, I would say. Writing is, after all, a sophistication, and an priceless tool, but it's derived from speaking. Language stems from a phonetic code. Speaking is no doubt much older than writing.

Grammar is an afterthought. In our heart of hearts we know there is an implicit order and hierarchy, and we try to clarify it by spelling out some rules. But the process itself is much more spontaneous.

[Genady]

11 minutes ago, joigus said:

Language stems from a phonetic code.

With a tiny little exception of sign language.

(But it is not English. OT.)

[joigus]

4 minutes ago, Genady said:

With a tiny little exception of sign language.

(But it is not English. OT.)

Yes, I forgot that. I've mentioned it elsewhere in these forums though I think, or I should have, when talking about language.

Brain studies indicate that the areas of the brain that usually code for sounds are used to code for images --sequences of images[?]-- in the case of people with this particular disability. I'm sorry I don't have the biblio with me. It's covered in Stanford lectures on human behaviour by Sapolsky.

Makes you think whether the most primitive languages really were a mixture of mime and sounds.

[iNow]

An important component of how our cultures form comes from the way we pass on stories and knowledge across generations. We’re stronger bc we don’t have to start with a tabula rasa with each new life and can instead jump from a higher plane, spring boarding off the knowledge of those who came before us. 

These generational caches of information and behavioral narratives like “don’t poke the bee hive” and “avoid eating that mushroom” and “it’s better not to fornicate on ant hills” were sung to each other in songs around campfires. These stories allowed tribal elders to teach the young what was expected and how to act to survive the harshnesses of nature. They also reinforced norms and expectations among aging group members.

Those spoken songs turned into written words and now into typed texts today, but the process of conveying information socially through sound started well before humanity and occurs in copious ways across the animal kingdom. 

Animals at least don’t need to tie up memory resources remembering three distinct versions of English homonyms like their, they’re, and there… so maybe we humans just need to take their cue and start singing to each other once more.

After all, our ears are more efficient when they hear all three words as one  ✌🏼

Edited July 13, 2023 by iNow

[Intoscience]

On 7/12/2023 at 4:16 PM, geordief said:

Thought "ur joking" was correcter

You see, I read each as:

• u r joking - you are joking
• ur joking - you're joking

[John Cuthber]

On 7/13/2023 at 1:55 AM, iNow said:

These generational caches of information and behavioral narratives like “don’t poke the bee hive” and “avoid eating that mushroom” and “it’s better not to fornicate on ant hills” were sung to each other in songs around campfires.

We still do sometimes; it's very effective.