Proposal for an electromagnetic propulsion system

[Peter Dunn]

Manned spaceflight is an extremely dangerous undertaking for those involved at the sharp end: the actual crew members, whose continued commitment and bravery, despite the tragic losses incurred by the shuttle program, is an inspiration to us all. They are - both astronauts and cosmonauts - giants amongst men.

 

I salute them all.

 

There is a risk attached to all aspects of a manned space mission: from lift off - when the crew is propelled upward by a barely controlled explosive chemical reaction - during the actual spaceflight where the crew are exposed to hard radiation and the possibility of a catastrophic encounter with a piece of debris left over from previous missions - to re-entry where even a slight miscalculation could spell disaster.

 

The system that I am proposing should, if developed, provide a much safer and cheaper method for placing people in orbit and beyond.

 

To avoid disappointing anybody I will state, here, that the system I am proposing does not amount to a warp drive; that kind of technology is still some way off in the future.

 

My system would exploit phenomena with which we are all familiar: magnetic attraction and repulsion.

 

It would work like this:

 

The basic components of an electromagnetic propulsive engine would be, no prizes for guessing, electromagnets.

 

The system, in its most basic configuration, would require two magnets of exactly equal mass with at least one of the magnets being capable of phased switchable polarity.

 

Lets place the magnets one atop the other with the variable polarity magnet uppermost. At the moment they are switched off: the rest position. When they are switched on the magnets are in repulsive mode (like pole to like pole) so the upper magnet (let's call it M1) moves upwardly, at speed, away from the lower magnet (likewise M2). Because M1 is moving its momentum increases the amount of inertial mass it possesses: it is now heavier than M2. Before this extra mass is lost to deceleration the polarity of M1 is switched so that attractive force is generated and, because M1 is the heavier of the two magnets, M2 is pulled upward toward it. We now have a situation where M2's mass is increasing and M1's is falling. When M1's mass falls significantly below that of M2's we switch its polarity again so that M1 is propelled upward away from the heavier M2.

 

This process is repeated, say, one thousand times a second producing enough kinetic energy to propel a spacecraft.

 

This not a complete description of how such a system would actually operate in practice.

 

There is, for instance, the problem of how to transmit the kinetic energy from within the system to any craft utilising it.

 

This could, perhaps, be acheived by having the magnets (or arrays of magnets) themselves suspended within a powerful magnetic field so that they first push against the field which - in turn - pushes against the coil generating the field which is, itself, bolted to the hull of a spacecraft.

 

This is really just the genesis of an idea; what it needs to take it further - to hopefully make it reality - is loads of input from you lot out there.

 

Futher posts required; all constructive comments and suggestions welcomed.

 

Peter Dunn

[Stevil]

not a bad idea!

maybe u could have the magnets out in front of the craft like some space horse and cart.

of course it'll have to be a little more sophisticated. but maybe a dragging kind of method will work.

 

ok, this idea won't work for the spaceship application but it could work for vehicle engines and power (i think):

u have the magnets on an axle.

think of a dumbell, with two weights on one end. but instead of being complete circles they are more of a pac-man shape or a pizza with a slice taken out. inside the cut-out is the magnet.

the two different magnets are on two different disks or the metaphoric weights. there is some crossover over of the magnets to maximise the attraction.

now only one of the magnet disks will be attached to the axle, the other to some other pole -maybe even another axle to work on another machine. so now, the two magnets will rotate and they'll drag the axle which will power the machine.

refer to diagrams: i apologise for the crudity of this model.

i call it a stevil engine.

[Kettle]

Peter Dunn - there are already several groups researching interplanetary electromagnetic propulsion - there's the Interstellar Propulsion Society plus a few others.

 

You might also be interested in this:-

http://www.americanantigravity.com/

 

It's not really anti-gravity or emp - they developed this thing called the Lifter that they originally thought was anti-gravity but actually works by the movement of ions quite cool though.

[Sayonara]

Stevil: Why not just use an electric motor?

[atinymonkey]

The K.I.S.S. principle. Always good to keep it in mind.

 

[Sayonara]

I was applying K.I.S.S., clearly.

[Peter Dunn]

Hi Kettle

 

Thanks for the info. Will visit site.

 

Hi Sayonara

 

Electric motors produce rotary mechanical energy not thrust.

 

All the best

 

Peter Dunn

[Sayonara]

Peter, if you had bothered to read Stevil's post you would have seen that he was talking about driving an axle using magnetic induction - in other words, basically an electrical motor. Only more complicated and more expensive.

 

And since you already pointed out yourself that there is not yet any way to transform the energy produced by your magnet system into directed thrust for a spaceship, I fail to see how the distinction could be relevant or valid.

[Peter Dunn]

Hi Sayonara

 

I did read Stevil's post but couldn't fathom where he was going with the diagram.

 

Also - I accept that my idea couldn't be transformed into a fully functioning system as it stands (I don't even know if there is such a think as an electromagnet with switchable polarity). This is the reason I posted the message here instead of taking out a patent, making millions and retiring to a remote tropical paradise.

 

Further - may I, with all respect, suggest to you that the best way to improve the performance of an electric motor would be to introduce superconducting technology into the equation.

 

Furthermore, I feel I have to say this, what's with this confrontational approach? I didn't subscribe to this forum to start arguments over the aether.

 

Let me repeat - I would be grateful for any constructive input even if that input is technologically difficult (or, for that matter, impossible) for me to understand.

 

Respectfully yours

 

Peter Dunn

[Sayonara]

Originally posted by Peter Dunn

Furthermore, I feel I have to say this, what's with this confrontational approach? I didn't subscribe to this forum to start arguments over the aether.

Then don't patronise me.

[Star-struck]

Peter, another thought provoking thread. Bravo! I think simply turning the electromagnet on and off would in effect achieve phase shifting. You could use a permanent Neodymium magnet for the electromagnet to act upon. Construct the permanent magnet to be caused to spin, as it is repelled by the electromagnet, to generate electric power. I wonder what kind of efficiency you could expect. Taking nuclear propulsion a step further, I wonder if you could utilize the electromagnetic pulse from a series of small and controlled nuclear explosins to power such an electromagnet.

[Peter Dunn]

Hi Sayonara

 

The all seeing one - would that equate with all knowing?

 

If so answer me this: how is it possible for me to patronise (act condescendingly toward) someone whom I do not know?

 

Yours

 

Peter Dunn

[Sayonara]

Fairly easily, as you demonstrated earlier.

 

All you need is to establish or assume the minimum possible level of information and understanding a person has in a particular field, and then attempt to educate them using more basic information. Like this:

 

Originally posted by Peter Dunn

Hi Sayonara

Electric motors produce rotary mechanical energy not thrust.

All the best

'All-seeing' refers to my user status, not my intelligence. I may be a twat but I'm not that arrogant.

 

ps - nicely correct use of 'whom'

pps - Blike, I really hate that new GIANT quote box

[Peter Dunn]

Hi Star-struck

 

Thanks for the input.

 

I looked up neodymium in the dictionary (as it was new to me) which described it as a toxic metallic element - has it any properties that make it more suitable than iron (ie does a dymium atom have more electrons than an iron atom?)? If so please advise.

 

As to the adviseability of using EMP waves to power the magnets I'm not so sure. Part of the reason for my proposal was to remove the dangerous explosive reaction used at present to power rockets. Also, I must confess, I am anti nuclear power as I believe it be a kind of 'jam today" solution to energy needs; it seems cheap to generate at the moment but the real cost is just being passed down to future generations.

 

Reading your post did, however, make me appreciate the fact that the initial stage of a spacecraft's journey: liftoff - requires enormous amounts of energy regardless of the propulsion method employed. I then realised, though, that; unlike a rockect that must carry all its stored energy (fuel) inboard - a system using electromagnet energy could have some of its energy requirement supplied from a ground station with, say, a powerful laser beam focussed on super efficient photo-electric cells attached to the craft. Another, even simpler method, would be to have the craft trailing a cable behind it - like a TOW missile - that would be released when the craft cleared the atmosphere.

 

Once in the weightless environment of space the craft's energy requirements fall dramatically as constant aceleration means that the thousands of shoves a second generated by the magnets would allow it to attain awesome velocities.

 

I think having one of the magnets rotate might have some mileage in it (see attachment) as this might preclude having to develope a variable polarity magnet.

 

Thanks again

 

Peter Dunn

[JaKiri]

Re: pps.

 

So do I.

[Sayonara]

Now that's in a diagram form it makes me think of a donkey in space, with a carrot dangled in front of it.

 

Where does the thrust come from?

[Star-struck]

Peter,

Neodymium, when magnetized, yields the best magnetic performance in terms of strength and duration. I'm not sure of it's atomic structure.

Continuing on from your last post, I realized that magnetic propulsion is being used today. Not in spacecraft, mind you, but in roller coasters of all things.

There are roller coasters that use a series of electromagnets to achieve their initial acceleration. These electromagnets are able to propel several thousand pounds to speeds in the vicinity of 100mph in around 3 seconds.

I wonder if the same type of application would work for catapulting a spacecraft into orbit. A spacecraft would be relatively light if it didn't have to carry it's own propulsion system.

Being that all your power would come in only the first few seconds, vice the sustained power of current launch systems, you would likely have to propel the craft to well over 18,000mph so that as it slowed down, during ascent, it would still be able to break free of gravity's pull.

I wonder if it would even be possible to generate and store the amount of electricity needed to fuel a system such as this. Maybe a giant quick-discharge capacitor.

Let me get back to the magnetic pulse theory for a minute. Assuming that type of propulsion could work to achieve orbit, based on what we know would it also be able to serve as propulsion while in orbit? Do magnets, both permanent and electro, work the same in space or would it solely be a method of achieving orbit?

[superchump]

Originally posted by Sayonara³

Now that's in a diagram form it makes me think of a donkey in space, with a carrot dangled in front of it.

 

Where does the thrust come from?

 

I agree. It's like trying to lift myself off the ground by pulling on my bootstraps.

[Peter Dunn]

Hi Star-struck

 

To take your last question first - magnetism does, I believe, behave in the same manner in space as it does down here so a variable polarity pulse system would work well enough for, say, voyages to Mars etc even though it would not produce the brute power of a rocket motor.

 

I very much like the electromagnetic catapult concept; this would be ideal for achieving initial escape velocity (6.94 mps) the one drawback being a craft launched by this system, if it was planned that it land on another planet, would have to be capable of carrying a prefabricated electromag' launcher in the hold.

 

Thanks for the info on neodymium I'll consult Encarta to learn more.

 

All the very best

 

Peter Dunn

[Peter Dunn]

Hi Sayonara

 

re: thrust

 

Read first post this thread.

 

All the best

 

Peter Dunn

[JaKiri]

Peter Dunn:

 

Conservation of momentum.

[Sayonara]

Originally posted by MrL_JaKiri

Conservation of momentum.

[atinymonkey]

Doesn't it all produce a large vibrator in space? I'm having trouble determining the propulsive element, I'm guessing it's possible to acheve thrust somehow, but I'm still just getting the giant vibrator.

[atinymonkey]

Unless.........There is a propulsion gained by opposite momentum. If the ship was a spinning disk (lets guess that is it, for this it can be power by rockets) and the propulsion drive was housed in the center of the disk in a gyroscope. The gyroscope would be pivoting on an opposite axis to the disk controlled by servos that continually pivot the axis, that could potentially produce thrust. The servos would have to be controlled using a 3d rosenberg diagram and a insane 3D physics model.

 

It would still be a giant vibrator though, so possibly not efficent enough to move more that a few feet without ripping the giroscope apart.

[blike]

Peter, I understand your idea, however I still do not understand how it generates actual thrust against gravity. I do understand the concept of the magnets, however I don't think it would get off the ground.

 

For example: Lets use my body in place the magnets. The lower half of my body (legs) are the lower magnet. The upper half of my body (torso/head) is the uppermagnet. For all intents lets just assume they have equal mass. Now, imagine me crouched over the floor, knees bent (like a baseball catcher). Now when we turn the first magnet on, the polarities repel, so the upper magnet moves upward. In the same way, lets imagine my upper torso moves upward, my legs act as the repelling force as I straighten them. Now, in your example, the magnets once again QUICKLY switch polarities and the bottom one is pulled upwards. In the same way, I quickly pull my legs upward (off the ground) into the crouching position again. In concept, I imagine this is the same effect the magnets will have. No matter how quickly I repeat this motion, I will still end up on the ground extending and contracting my legs because I have no constant outward thrust.