Was the war on drugs harmful to us as a society?

[MSC]

I'm talking motivations for instigation of the war on drugs, the effects and long term consequences of the war on drugs, and what values, virtues and principles guide people into supporting it to this day?

How can it end and what would happen if it did end? 

[Steve81]

On 8/9/2023 at 5:23 PM, MSC said:

I'm talking motivations for instigation of the war on drugs, the effects and long term consequences of the war on drugs, and what values, virtues and principles guide people into supporting it to this day?

How can it end and what would happen if it did end? 

With respect to the values, virtues, and principles part of your post, it likely varies considerably from person to person. Religious/moral objections likely play a role for many. Trying to limiting societal harm from drug addicts desperate for a fix is another. Trying to save drug users lives from extremely dangerous drugs (in the wrong hands at least) like Fentanyl could be a factor for some as well.

Effects and long-term consequences are a bigger analysis, especially when you start accounting for garbage like the CIA-Contra Cocaine trafficking business going on in the shadows. Certainly there was a massive spike in incarceration rates. Large sums of money were spent in a futile attempt to stem the flow of illegal drugs, as well as arresting and incarcerating offenders. Some of this was presumably recouped via Asset Forfeiture. Racism was naturally a factor in who got arrested for drug related crimes. Overall...it was a giant **** show.

How can it end? I'm not entirely sure. I can't imagine Fentanyl being legalized for street use (it is a fun ride though 😛). Marijuana legalization may help. Some consider it a gateway drug, but I consider it reasonably safe drug that most (but not all) people can tolerate, and it's a good enough ride that it may be enough to get people to forget about harder stuff. We'll have to see if any studies come out to prove that hypothesis. In my super-scientific one-man study, I didn't find the effects of Fentanyl delivered at the hospital to be a dramatically superior experience to medical marijuana. 

Ultimately, we just need better resources to help people with drug addiction. Incarceration hardly seems like it would help people kick the habit, and recidivism rates among Federal drug offenders don't seem like anything to brag about. 

 

Edited August 12, 2023 by Steve81

[Peterkin]

On 8/9/2023 at 5:23 PM, MSC said:

I'm talking motivations for instigation of the war on drugs,

Quote

We knew we couldn’t make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. - John Ehrlichman

 

On 8/9/2023 at 5:23 PM, MSC said:

the effects and long term consequences of the war on drugs,

https://www.npr.org/2021/06/17/1006495476/after-50-years-of-the-war-on-drugs-what-good-is-it-doing-for-us

On 8/9/2023 at 5:23 PM, MSC said:

and what values, virtues and principles guide people into supporting it to this day

None. It's unthinking fear. "Drugs" as a boogeyman has been a specter in American life for so long that the very word conjures up evil cabals and ruthless cartels. It tends to prompt otherwise nice people to demonize a wide swathe of their fellow citizens and vote for 'law-and-order' (aka conservative) candidates. It's not values or virtues; it's fear. Meanwhile, the "war" on drugs (aka war on the poor) has been an excuse for militarizing the police and brutalizing the justice system. Overall, not a very positive effect on society. 

On 8/9/2023 at 5:23 PM, MSC said:

How can it end

Sensible laws in classifying substances and legalizing the relatively harmless recreational ones. Making arrests and sentences proportional to the degree of involvement in trafficking. Making safer alternatives and rehabilitation available to addicts. And the hard one: improving the standard and quality of life so that fewer people need an escape from their reality.

On 8/9/2023 at 5:23 PM, MSC said:

what would happen if it did end

There would be one less thing for people to worry about and one less excuse for police to harass and shoot them. Plenty more bad staff left to make life difficult.

[iNow]

On 8/9/2023 at 4:23 PM, MSC said:

How can it end and what would happen if it did end? 

By acknowledging it’s a war we can’t win and will never end, decriminalizing essentially all drugs, and replacing investments in private prisons with investments in rehabilitation centers, low cost housing, food programs, and vocational training. 

What would happen if we did this? The lives of many tens of millions of people would be better, including those in no way associated with modern day addicts.

Sell it to the left by speaking of its morality and humanity. Sell it to the right by speaking of its direct connection to personal freedom and autonomy. Sell it to the middle by speaking of its higher ROI across metrics. 

[MSC]

On 8/12/2023 at 6:44 PM, Steve81 said:

Some consider it a gateway drug, but I consider it reasonably safe drug that most (but not all) people can tolerate, and it's a good enough ride that it may be enough to get people to forget about harder stuff. We'll have to see if any studies come out to prove that hypothesis. In

I'd argue that the gateway drug, if I were to stretch the metaphor, has to be something gates open for... which is alcohol. Anything illegal is hopping the fence. When weed is legal though, it has been used to cure heroin addiction. 

Anecdotally, the few times I did anything harder than smoking weed, I was drunk. I've never been persuaded to do cocaine while just high, alcohol is the gateway drug imo.

[Steve81]

Just now, MSC said:

I'd argue that the gateway drug, if I were to stretch the metaphor, has to be something gates open for... which is alcohol. Anything illegal is hopping the fence. When weed is legal though, it has been used to cure heroin addiction. 

Anecdotally, the few times I did anything harder than smoking weed, I was drunk. I've never been persuaded to do cocaine while just high, alcohol is the gateway drug imo.

I agree with that assessment. As far as the benefits of legal weed go, medical marijuana helped me regain my ability to eat adequate quantities of food after being starved for two weeks in the hospital. I could tolerate about a small bowl of broth at the time. 

[Peterkin]

1 hour ago, Steve81 said:

I could tolerate about a small bowl of broth at the time. 

I couldn't; had a feeding tube for six months. But pot didn't become legal and readily available until several years too late. Mary Jane was never a culprit; only a scapegoat - the whole reefer madness mania was a farce.  

[Steve81]

1 minute ago, Peterkin said:

I couldn't; had a feeding tube for six months. But pot didn't become legal and readily available until several years too late. Mary Jane was never a culprit; only a scapegoat - the whole reefer madness mania was a farce.  

Care to share your experience? PM is fine if you don’t want it public.

[Peterkin]

7 hours ago, Steve81 said:

Care to share your experience?

It would be a derail to go into detail here. Suffice to say, I had extensive radiation and chemo therapy for stage III squamous cell carcinoma of the throat in 2008. I was unable to swallow any solid food for several months; was feeble and miserable. Medical marijuana might have helped, at least with the nausea, but none of my doctors prescribed it. Touchy subject under a conservative government - they tend to make wars on things that don't hurt anybody, to collect in the religious vote.

Besides, I sure wasn't about to start smoking again three months after quitting.  It comes in tincture for vaping, but not a form you can add to the nutritional liquid muck in a feeding tube, so it wouldn't have been much use to me anyhow. What did help some was club soda. 

[iNow]

9 hours ago, Peterkin said:

Mary Jane was never a culprit; only a scapegoat - the whole reefer madness mania was a farce.  

The most plausible explanations I've encountered involve using these laws to specifically target black and brown people. Arrests and jail time were asymmetrically applied and enforcement occurred more heavily against these populations relative to their white peers. White residents who used the same drugs in the same amounts did not, however, experience the same criminal "justice" response. 

[Peterkin]

37 minutes ago, iNow said:

The most plausible explanations I've encountered involve using these laws to specifically target black and brown people.

That was the Nixon strategy. Reefer Madness predates that by about three decades or more. At first, cannabis was the main target, in order to aggrandize and enrich the 

Quote

 

Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc./Kenny Chmielewski

In the 1930s Harry J. Anslinger, head of the Federal Bureau of Narcotics, turned the battle against marijuana into an all-out war. Some believe that he was motivated less by safety concerns—the vast majority of scientists he surveyed claimed that the drug was not dangerous—and more by a desire to promote his newly created department.

He used Jim Crow and fear of Mexican migrants to promote the ant-drug agenda. When prohibition ended, the FBI and Customs police were facing cuts to their budget and power. They jumped right on board, waging valiant battle against a new bogeyman. That the subsequent disproportionately harsh sentencing happened to damage the nonconformist subcultures was a bonus; the vast amounts of money and manpower suddenly available to law-enforcement was the real payoff. The infamous movie

54 minutes ago, iNow said:

rrests and jail time were asymmetrically applied and enforcement occurred more heavily against these populations relative to their white peers.

Not unusual in other areas, either. Can you imagine how The Law would react if Leon D. Washington uttered as many threats as Donald J. Trump has? 

Edited August 14, 2023 by Peterkin

[CharonY]

On 8/12/2023 at 7:53 PM, iNow said:

By acknowledging it’s a war we can’t win and will never end, decriminalizing essentially all drugs, and replacing investments in private prisons with investments in rehabilitation centers, low cost housing, food programs, and vocational training. 

What would happen if we did this? The lives of many tens of millions of people would be better, including those in no way associated with modern day addicts.

Sell it to the left by speaking of its morality and humanity. Sell it to the right by speaking of its direct connection to personal freedom and autonomy. Sell it to the middle by speaking of its higher ROI across metrics. 

One important step, and something that folks are slowly start to agree on (though some voices might say that it is because the opioid pandemic has now also decimated white communities) is that drug abuse should be seen primarily as a public health crisis, and not primarily a criminal one. That is why the measures outlined above make more sense, as they focus on intervention and treatment, rather than punishment. 

[mahichwdry]

 

The war on drugs has been a long and costly battle, with significant impacts on society. Some of the potential harms of the war on drugs include:

• Increased mass incarceration: The war on drugs has led to a sharp increase in the number of people incarcerated, particularly for nonviolent drug offenses. This has had a disproportionate impact on communities of color, which are more likely to be targeted by law enforcement for drug-related crimes.
• Violence: The war on drugs has also been linked to increased violence, both in the United States and abroad. The drug trade is often associated with violence, and the war on drugs has led to increased militarization of law enforcement, which has contributed to further violence.
• Public health harms: The war on drugs has also had a number of negative public health impacts. For example, the criminalization of drug use has made it more difficult for people who are addicted to drugs to seek treatment. Additionally, the war on drugs has disrupted traditional drug markets, which has led to the proliferation of more dangerous and addictive drugs.

It is important to note that the war on drugs has also had some positive impacts, such as reducing the supply of illegal drugs and increasing awareness of the dangers of drug use. However, the potential harms of the war on drugs are significant and should be carefully considered.

In conclusion, the war on drugs has had a complex and multifaceted impact on society. It is important to weigh the potential harms and benefits of the war on drugs when making decisions about drug policy.

[e jane aran]

Prohibition worked great: greatly reduced rates of liver disease, domestic violence, drunk driving, etc. Other than enabling the creation of the Mob, it was a smashing success.

Ah, but that Mob thing....

I think the "war on drugs" has been even less successful (in terms of public health, etc). So, other than enabling the creation of transnational gangs and their attendant violence, the war on drugs has been a less-than-smashing success.

Ah, but that gangs thing....

[CharonY]

3 hours ago, e jane aran said:

Prohibition worked great: greatly reduced rates of liver disease, domestic violence, drunk driving, etc. Other than enabling the creation of the Mob, it was a smashing success.

Ah, but that Mob thing....

I think the "war on drugs" has been even less successful (in terms of public health, etc). So, other than enabling the creation of transnational gangs and their attendant violence, the war on drugs has been a less-than-smashing success.

Ah, but that gangs thing....

Do you have literature showing the health effects of the prohibition?

[e jane aran]

6 hours ago, CharonY said:

Do you have literature showing the health effects of the prohibition?

There are loads of resources.

National Institutes on Health

Vox

Depew (PDF)

Years ago, I'd read a startling little book on the topic, but I have no idea what its title might have been. Sorry.

Edited September 24, 2023 by e jane aran

[dimreepr]

On 8/9/2023 at 10:23 PM, MSC said:

I'm talking motivations for instigation of the war on drugs, the effects and long term consequences of the war on drugs, and what values, virtues and principles guide people into supporting it to this day?

How can it end and what would happen if it did end? 

The war on anything is a futile gesture, as history shows; for instance, if all the money we spend on war's, was spent on avoiding war's, then no one would feel the need to take drugs... 😉

[Sensei]

On 8/9/2023 at 11:23 PM, MSC said:

I'm talking motivations for instigation of the war on drugs,

Motivations are obvious. "To be elected to yet another period"..

 

On 8/9/2023 at 11:23 PM, MSC said:

the effects and long term consequences of the war on drugs,

..the one who fights against drugs in the presence of TV cameras often takes them, such as smoking marijuana, in his/her own house..

ps. Shouldn't politicians be tested for drugs in their blood like car drivers... ?

This would remove some from the political scene, as some drugs are detectable after many months..

How can you debunk e.g. marijuana in front of a TV camera (and meanwhile secretly smoke it) to gain undeserved applause from voters who condemn such practices?

 

In the US, the consequences are rather obvious. Managers of private prisons and their shareholders are getting richer.. With such model, the more criminals the better for entire system of lawyers, judges, prosecutors, policeman, criminal psychologists (!), criminal "specialists" in various areas, prison owners, prison employees, etc. etc.

Edited September 24, 2023 by Sensei

[CharonY]

9 hours ago, e jane aran said:

There are loads of resources.

National Institutes on Health

Vox

Depew (PDF)

Years ago, I'd read a startling little book on the topic, but I have no idea what its title might have been. Sorry.

Great, thank you! 

Edit: I think I saw the Blocker paper earlier, and while it was interesting to see a historian's perspective, it was overall light on public health effects. This is not a specific criticism as in contrast to now, data was much scarcer to come by. But the vox article has provided an interesting paper.

 

[TheVat]

Alcohol prohibition probably had some mitigating effect partly due to the fact that people who were law-abiding and not desperate for a drink simply figured it was easier to follow the law and find other social lubricants.  Some drugs, the cohort that uses it is much smaller, less moved by moral arguments and more driven to obtaining it, so legal banning has less effect.