Observations on Socialism

[Steve81]

4 minutes ago, Genady said:

Yes, it can be collective OR governmental. Not necessarily governmental.

Indeed, that's why I included the "society at large" part in my definition. At that point, the collective would essentially be "the government".

[Genady]

1 minute ago, Steve81 said:

Indeed, that's why I included the "society at large" part in my definition. At that point, the collective would essentially be "the government".

The original vision for the "society at large" was not a government but a hierarchical structure of "collectives" (called, Soviets).

[iNow]

4 hours ago, studiot said:

I'm sure we are all well aware of at least the basics of how insurance works and that it can work for both many socialist (in the broadest sense) and non socialist societies.

Apologies, your question lacked precision. 

[sethoflagos]

1 hour ago, Genady said:

 

1 hour ago, Steve81 said:

It's the basic definition of socialism reworded a tad from Merriam Webster...

Socialism Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster

 

 

You seem to be cherry picking one definition of several given in that reference.

1 hour ago, Genady said:

Yes, it can be collective OR governmental. Not necessarily governmental.

 

That used to be slogan for communism. The slogan for the socialism was, 'From each according to his ability, to each according to his contribution'.

Statism vs collectivism? 

Edited August 10, 2023 by sethoflagos
Duplication

[Steve81]

3 minutes ago, sethoflagos said:

You seem to be cherry picking one definition of several given in that reference.

If by cherry picking, you mean going with the first definition provided, then yes, I'm guilty. Please accept my sincerest apology.

[Genady]

17 minutes ago, sethoflagos said:

Statism vs collectivism?

Perhaps, although I am not familiar with these terms exactly.

[TheVat]

I usually hear collectivism used as a broader term for any system where the welfare of the group is put before that of the individual.  Everything from ancient Scandinavian societies up to modern Marxism.  Collectivism is egalitarian and seeks to achieve economic equality through control of production and distribution.  Decisions always defer to a group rather than an individual.  If it's a company, workers share in profits and participate in decision making as equals.  

Statism specifically means, IIRC, a system where a central power structure controls social and economic affairs.  Authoritarian governments tend to be statist.  They can be a perversion of an egalitarian collectivist society, in many instances, with power concentrating centrally.  

In thr original collectivist meaning of communism, the concept of a "communist party" would tend to be contradictory.  

[sethoflagos]

3 minutes ago, TheVat said:

I usually hear collectivism used as a broader term for any system where the welfare of the group is put before that of the individual.  Everything from ancient Scandinavian societies up to modern Marxism.  Collectivism is egalitarian and seeks to achieve economic equality through control of production and distribution.  Decisions always defer to a group rather than an individual.  If it's a company, workers share in profits and participate in decision making as equals.  

Statism specifically means, IIRC, a system where a central power structure controls social and economic affairs.  Authoritarian governments tend to be statist.  They can be a perversion of an egalitarian collectivist society, in many instances, with power concentrating centrally.  

Much my understanding. +1 for fielding @Genady's post for me with a clarity I would struggle to match.

[TheVat]

Glad if it helps.  The struggle I had understanding Marx was that he wrote rather different works, some revolutionary, some more analytical, i.e. this is what capitalism does and maybe there are ways to get beyond it without concentration of either wealth or power in just a few hands (which will grow dirty and corrupt).  The failure of many communist societies was that they couldn't achieve both.  Sometimes you would get collectives that distributed wealth and eliminated an owner class (bourgeoisie ) but also stifled individual creativity and handed too much power to a few Party members.  I think Marx realized there were a lot of giant potholes on the road to his future worker's paradise, and he tried to make clear he couldn't predict what they all will be.  

[Genady]

22 minutes ago, TheVat said:

I usually hear collectivism used as a broader term for any system where the welfare of the group is put before that of the individual.  Everything from ancient Scandinavian societies up to modern Marxism.  Collectivism is egalitarian and seeks to achieve economic equality through control of production and distribution.  Decisions always defer to a group rather than an individual.  If it's a company, workers share in profits and participate in decision making as equals.  

Statism specifically means, IIRC, a system where a central power structure controls social and economic affairs.  Authoritarian governments tend to be statist.  They can be a perversion of an egalitarian collectivist society, in many instances, with power concentrating centrally.  

In thr original collectivist meaning of communism, the concept of a "communist party" would tend to be contradictory.  

Thank you for the explanation. Yes, statism vs collectivism. Soviets stayed in existence and in the name of the country, powerless.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Genady

[StringJunky]

2 hours ago, Genady said:

The original vision for the "society at large" was not a government but a hierarchical structure of "collectives" (called, Soviets).

United collective of socialist republics, is what USSR meant?

Edited August 10, 2023 by StringJunky

[Genady]

1 minute ago, StringJunky said:

United collective of socialist republics, is what USSR meant?

Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, which could be translated as Union of Collectivist Socialist Republics.

[StringJunky]

1 minute ago, Genady said:

Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, which could be translated as Union of Collectivist Socialist Republics.

Cheers. My dimming memory replaced Union with United.

[sethoflagos]

32 minutes ago, TheVat said:

... The struggle I had understanding Marx was that he wrote rather different works, some revolutionary, some more analytical ...

Me too. Das Kapital is essentially the algebra of capitalist microeconomics and should imho be essential reading in any education system. It is not particularly 'political'.

The Communist Manifesto should also be essential reading in view of its historical impact and amazing prose, but it is definitely a child of it's time.

Edited August 10, 2023 by sethoflagos
Illiteracy

[npts2020]

On 8/10/2023 at 6:18 PM, sethoflagos said:

Me too. Das Kapital is essentially the algebra of capitalist microeconomics and should imho be essential reading in any education system. It is not particularly 'political'.

The Communist Manifesto should also be essential reading in view of its historical impact and amazing prose, but it is definitely a child of it's time.

Or at least a "Cliff Notes" of both. I find Marx to be very repetitive but one of the few economic writers who actually make sense.

[studiot]

1 hour ago, npts2020 said:

but one of the few economic writers

And there's me thinking that his works were of great length!

🙂

[npts2020]

7 minutes ago, studiot said:

And there's me thinking that his works were of great length!

🙂

Pretty funny I didn't catch that because I do editing and frequently have to get the same sort of changes made in manuscripts. I probably should have said, "one of the few pontificators of economics".  

[sethoflagos]

4 hours ago, npts2020 said:

I find Marx to be very repetitive but one of the few economic writers who actually make sense.

His programme made a little less sense after John Maynard Keynes published 'The General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money' in 1936.

This and rapid technological development gave post-war democratic left-leaning governments the opportunity to provide many of the benefits of a socialist ideal to the bulk of society without the need for violent takeover of the state.