Chemical Responses and Shame Providing Positive and Negative Feedback to Promote Altruistic Behavior

[TheVat]

(edit box won't let me access previous post - I am responding to previous post before the page break)

 

What if ignoring the rule about causing harm to others were applied to a mass shooter who was preparing to mow down the audience in a theater?  If you were behind the shooter with a heavy object in your hands, would you refrain from harming the mass shooter?  Just making the point that "do no harm" is simplistic.

It's for this reason doctors have ethics boards and complex nuanced criteria for administering dangerous drugs.  The drug might make you very ill or kill you, but the disease is ten times as likely to do so.

For this reason, I think ethical principles are better than rules.  It's like the different between common law and Napoleonic codes.

Edited August 16, 2023 by TheVat
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[Genady]

3 minutes ago, TheVat said:

edit box won't let me access previous post - I am responding to previous post before the page break

There is a way to quote from other pages. Go to a post and click on + sign (near the "Quote"). The quote will be in memory, and you can place it in your response by clicking on the floating box (in the right lower corner, in my browser.)

Also, if you have already started writing, you still can go away from the page; when you return and click in the edit box, your draft will reappear.

Apologies, if said nothing new.

[Steve81]

22 minutes ago, TheVat said:

(edit box won't let me access previous post - I am responding to previous post before the page break)

 

What if ignoring the rule about causing harm to others were applied to a mass shooter who was preparing to mow down the audience in a theater?  If you were behind the shooter with a heavy object in your hands, would you refrain from harming the mass shooter?  Just making the point that "do no harm" is simplistic.

It's for this reason doctors have ethics boards and complex nuanced criteria for administering dangerous drugs.  The drug might make you very ill or kill you, but the disease is ten times as likely to do so.

For this reason, I think ethical principles are better than rules.  It's like the different between common law and Napoleonic codes.

Sounds like a case of rule 1, regarding helping others. You’re not helping the mass shooter of course, just everyone else involved. 

[iNow]

1 minute ago, Steve81 said:

Sounds like a case of rule 1, regarding helping others. You’re not helping the mass shooter of course, just everyone else involved. 

Is the mass shooter not also an "other?"

[Steve81]

1 minute ago, iNow said:

Is the mass shooter not also an "other?"

Once one is willing to commit acts of such violence, no. It’s no different from putting down a rabid dog.

[iNow]

Who gets to decide when someone is no longer eligible to be considered human? You? Do YOU get to decide that this person no longer deserves to live? Who watches the watchers?

[Steve81]

Just now, iNow said:

Who gets to decide when someone is no longer eligible to be considered human? You? Do YOU get to decide that this person no longer deserves to live? Who watches the watchers?

Law enforcement officials and the judicial system typically; with your hypothetical individual, that is a decision they must make themselves.

[Genady]

What if the theatre is full of SS officers?

[Steve81]

Just now, Genady said:

What if the theatre is full of SS officers?

Then clearly we’re talking about a society where my philosophy wouldn’t take hold, and any who subscribed to my thoughts that were unlucky enough to live there would flee for their lives.

[Genady]

What if it is in the US and the shooter knows that there is in fact a meeting of terrorist sleeping cells going on there?

What if that poor person could not flee? (in the SS officers scenario)

What if that person decided to stay and fight the Nazis?

How many scenarios can YOU imagine?

Edited August 16, 2023 by Genady

[TheVat]

2 minutes ago, Genady said:

What if the theatre is full of SS officers?

Yes, that further underscores what I was trying to say.  Ethics is hard, life is messy, sometimes we need to look at principles of good will and apply them with the nuances that moment calls for.  

PS - thanks for mentioning the floating quote thing.  My problem was I was on an old tablet this morning that made going back to previous page difficult.

[Steve81]

8 minutes ago, TheVat said:

Yes, that further underscores what I was trying to say.  Ethics is hard, life is messy, sometimes we need to look at principles of good will and apply them with the nuances that moment calls for.  

Ethics is hard under certain scenarios, for example the case of Scot Peterson. 
 

But these scenarios rather miss the point. These are guidelines on how to live happily; they aren’t meant to solve each and every problem that will arise in one’s life. Would changing the verbiage to such be agreeable?

11 minutes ago, Genady said:

What if it is in the US and the shooter knows that there is in fact a meeting of a terrorist sleeping cells going on there?

What if that poor person could not flee? (in the SS officers scenario)

What if that person decided to stay and fight the Nazis?

How many scenarios can YOU imagine?

Why would this individual not notify law enforcement vs taking the situation into his own hands? This is part of asking for help.

Edited August 16, 2023 by Steve81

[Genady]

On 8/14/2023 at 12:20 AM, Steve81 said:

2. Learn as much as possible to maximize personal satisfaction as well as your ability to help others.

A neighbor of mine, a good guy, when he heard that I'm studying QM exclaimed that graduating from college was the happiest day in his life -- because he will never have to learn anything anymore.

5 minutes ago, Steve81 said:

Why would this individual not notify law enforcement vs taking the situation into his own hands?

Scenario 176.12b: No time.

Scenario 176.12c: He knows that somebody in the law enforcement is involved with the terrorists, but he does not know who.

...

Really, with all the books and movies, can't YOU come up with more and more scenarios?

[TheVat]

4 minutes ago, Steve81 said:

Why would this individual not notify law enforcement vs taking the situation into his own hands? This is part of asking for help.

My scenario was really about making a decision in the moment where innocent lives (I was assuming theater with innocent civilians in it) are at stake.  I can't get law enforcement there in time.  Clonking the mass shooter on his noggin will make me unhappy, violate my principles of nonviolence, but maybe I decided innocent lives of many people are more important than my feeling good about myself so I whacked the guy.  Later I may come to feel the satisfaction of doing the right thing.

So my principle of no harm is really more about least harm.  

7 minutes ago, Genady said:

A neighbor of mine, a good guy, when he heard that I'm studying QM exclaimed that graduating from college was the happiest day in his life -- because he will never have to learn anything anymore.

I believe possibly he was pulling your leg.

[Steve81]

13 minutes ago, Genady said:

A neighbor of mine, a good guy, when he heard that I'm studying QM exclaimed that graduating from college was the happiest day in his life -- because he will never have to learn anything anymore

——————-

Really, with all the books and movies, can't YOU come up with more and more scenarios?

Regarding the first part of your post, that’s why I posited the irrefutable rule.

With respect to the second, see the first part of the post you quoted, i.e. my reply to TheVat.

Still, if you want to know what I would do in the scenario, given the high probability that I would get seriously injured or killed trying to stop a gunman on my own, I would call law enforcement for help, and follow their instructions. 

7 minutes ago, TheVat said:

So my principle of no harm is really more about least harm.  

I concur.

Edited August 16, 2023 by Steve81

[Genady]

5 minutes ago, TheVat said:

I believe possibly he was pulling your leg.

I believe it was the happy day and it lasted until he soon discovered that it is not so and he will have to learn more.

[Steve81]

2 minutes ago, Genady said:

I believe it was the happy day and it lasted until he soon discovered that it is not so and he will have to learn more.

Hopefully we learn more every day, whether or not we realize it.

[Genady]

12 minutes ago, Steve81 said:

Hopefully we learn more every day, whether or not we realize it.

If you realize it, report here: Today I Learned - The Lounge - Science Forums

 

[Steve81]

1 minute ago, Genady said:

If you realize it, report here: Today I Learned - The Lounge - Science Forums

 

Thank you for the link; I actually posted there some days ago about an IT issue!

[Genady]

No problem.

I've suddenly thought of FB. I don't use it, but my wife does, and she sometimes shows me something there. I often notice memes posted by her FB friends advising on how to be happy. One could make a book of these, converting them to rules.

[Genady]

Here, I asked my wife to email me the latest such meme and I got this:

Can be converted to a rule for increasing happiness.

[Steve81]

1 hour ago, Genady said:

No problem.

I've suddenly thought of FB. I don't use it, but my wife does, and she sometimes shows me something there. I often notice memes posted by her FB friends advising on how to be happy. One could make a book of these, converting them to rules.

As an observation from the "happy" perspective, it makes you want to share the wealth, so to speak. It has benefits in ordinary interactions, and can be rather important in more complex scenarios. It also helps cope with pain. For example, as I learned today from a trip to the ER for a kidney stone, befriending the doctors and nurses treating you, and understanding why they do what they do (even if it seems annoying), makes a huge difference in outcome. Outside of the unpleasantness of the pain, my day has been pretty good so far. 

50 minutes ago, Genady said:

Can be converted to a rule for increasing happiness.

Appreciated! 

2 hours ago, Genady said:

A neighbor of mine, a good guy, when he heard that I'm studying QM exclaimed that graduating from college was the happiest day in his life -- because he will never have to learn anything anymore.

Scenario 176.12b: No time.

Scenario 176.12c: He knows that somebody in the law enforcement is involved with the terrorists, but he does not know who.

...

Really, with all the books and movies, can't YOU come up with more and more scenarios?

Just for fun, let's turn this into the trolley problem, with a few little modifications. Suppose a train/trolley is running down it's track and there are three people in the way; you, a distant observer, have a switch to divert the train/trolley to a siding where only one man is standing. Now let's assume the three men on the main line are drug dealers, and the lone man on the siding is a physician. What do you do?

I personally wouldn't save the three drug dealers and kill the physician, if I, the distant observer had the requisite information. Without that information, all I can do is attempt to save the three individuals, and accept the fact that it may be the wrong decision. 

Edited August 16, 2023 by Steve81

[Steve81]

It occurs to me that this little philosophy could use a bit more structure, lest it become confusing.

Rules: Irrefutable items, like not being spread by force, and seeking the path of least harm

Guidelines: Subject to additions, things to try and live by to guide you towards happiness

Ideals: A statement of what we strive to achieve, such as seeking truth, being loving towards our fellow human beings, etc. 

 

[Genady]

1 hour ago, Steve81 said:

What do you do?

Toss a coin.

[Steve81]

1 hour ago, Genady said:

Toss a coin.

Indeed! I don’t know you well enough yet; are you familiar with Batman comics and the villains Two Face? I ask because he carried around a double-sided coin, with one side defaced, and flips it to make his decisions.