just a quicky

[YT2095]

which of these 2 is likely to produce a reaction?

 

1, Ammonium chloride + Nitric acid

2, Ammonium nitrate + Hydrochloric acid

 

I predict number 1, but I`m uncertain at the moment (and will test it later).

[QuarkQuarkQuark2001]

The solution contains the same kinds of ions but not the concentrations may not be equal.

Neutralization?

[woelen]

In the cold, none of these will lead to a reaction. With some heating you'll end up with an incredibly complex mix (with both of them).

 

With heating you get the following reaction products:

 

NO (colorless gas, brown in contact with air)

N2O (colorless gas, this is due to the presence of ammonium ions)

NO2 (brown gas)

ClNO (orange gas)

N2 (colorless gas, this is due to presence of ammonium ions)

Cl2 (green gas, but only when no ammonium ion is present)

 

The liquid turns yellow, due to ClNO, dissolved in the aqueous liquid. If you do the same experiment by dissolving KNO3 in hot concentrated HCl, then you get the same stuff, but with the N2O and N2 replaced by Cl2.

 

Just try it at a test tube scale. Interesting reaction. Be careful though, the liquid is VERY corrosive and the fumes are a poisonous coctail! The liquid easily dissolves gold, especially when warm.

[YT2095]

AHA! That explains it!

 

I`ve been deliberating over this all night (even in my sleep), Now I know why

the only thing that concerns me a little now, is that reading your post there seems to be an awefull lot of Gas liberated, almost like an explosive in slow motion. Other than the toxicity (I can do that when there`s no one else here), is there anything else I should be concerned about?

the part about it dissolving gold was my aim.

 

btw, what would this be called? Nitrosyl chloride, Nitrogen oxychloride?

[woelen]

You do not need to be afraid of an explosion. If you want to dissolve gold, then go for NaNO3 or KNO3 in HCl. The ammonium ions spoil the solution quite a lot, because a lot of active ingredient is used up for oxidizing the ammonium ion to N2 and N2O. If you don't have KNO3 or NaNO3, then you could try with ammonium nitrate, but it does not work as good as the other two.

 

The compound ON-Cl is called nitrosyl chloride.

[YT2095]

Excellent thnx

 

I have all of the above and nitric acid to make aqua-regia too, the thing that promted the original line of thought was that before I went out to buy this HCl, I`de got a batch of NaCl in conc sulphuric all ready to distill later on.

I cama back with a gallon of the stuff and no longer needed to make any, so what do with this pre-mix? I hate waste.

 

so I figred add a little Ammonium Nitrate and distill it, then I got to thinking about HCl and Ammonium Nitrate... the rest is history

[akcapr]

where/how did u get ur hno3?

[YT2095]

I make that also, simple distilation of sodium nitrate in conc sulphuric acid (use ALL glass aparatus).

[akcapr]

wat conc. do u manage to get?

[YT2095]

as conc as I like really, it all depends on the application I want it for.

for highest conc, re-add the NA to conc sulphuric and distil again, but that`s only when I wish to use it right away, I never store this.

I always have some 50% in a small 125ml brown glass bottle that I keep stored if I need some, and that strength is plenty for most all applications I`m likely to need it for.

[YT2095]

I`ve just added 100mg of Ammonium nitrate to 3ml of fuming HCl(aq) in a test tube, it went icey cold right away. the AN didn`t appear to dissolve, and that stayed the same up to 37c (hand temperature) I heated this mixture over a bunsen for few seconds until the 1`st sign of bubbles, then removed it from the heat.

the bubbles contunued for some time (about 3 minutes) and ressembeled that of a good champagne, tiny streams of bubbles.

I can`t quite identify the smell though, it`s either chlorine or NO2, I`de esstimate NO2 as the smell is slightly sweeter than chlorine.

I`ve done a white paper test for color change and as of yet there is no change, either in the liquid or gas(ses) liberated.

there is clear distilation going on up the inside of the test tube though, almost reaching the top! the test tube is quite cool over half it`s length ending at room temp at the top.

so there IS a reaction, I`m just not sure exactly What at the moment?

I`ll try taking it to Boiling point next. I`ll post a little later.

[woelen]

Does the liquid turn yellow? Do you have a brown gas above the liquid? Or is the gas orange? Or just colorless?

[YT2095]

well I`ve boiled it to within an inch of it`s life, the liquid with a white paper test shows a little yellowing only, you`de otherwise not notice it with out the paper comparison.

oddly though, when it all cooled back to room temp, and I tilt the test tube to catch the condensed dropplets that form with the liquid, there are a few tiny tiny bubbles formed for a second.

other than that, nothing of any noticable significance happens.

[woelen]

If I look at your observations, then it's the ammonium ion, which is spoiling the thing. I write this in a previous post, that this might be a problem. Well, if I look at your observations, it is.

 

Repeat the experiment by adding NaNO3 (I understood from one of your posts on making HNO3 that you have this) to concentrated HCl (30+% is required for this). If you do that, then I bet that you get a yellow liquid and some brown/orange gas above it. Heat carefully, but you definitely should not boil it. Within a few minutes of heating you should have a nice yellow liquid.

 

Beware of the gases. These are very noxious!

[YT2095]

no probs, I have a few mins remaining, I`ll have a quick go at this now

 

edit: Aha yes, definately NO2 liberated! I can see the gas in the tube against a white paper, the liquid has a slight yellowing (nothing major though), and there`s a white precipitate along with one or 2 undissolved prills of NaNO3.

but Much more of reaction this time

[jdurg]

Repeat the experiment by adding NaNO3 (I understood from one of your posts on making HNO3 that you have this) to concentrated HCl (30+% is required for this). If you do that' date=' then I bet that you get a yellow liquid and some brown/orange gas above it. Heat carefully, but you definitely should not boil it. Within a few minutes of heating you should have a nice yellow liquid.

 

Beware of the gases. These are very noxious![/quote']

 

 

So YT's trying to make some aqua regia is he? You know, there are better ways to remove your wedding ring. Aqua regia is a bit extreme don't you think?

[woelen]

So YT's trying to make some aqua regia is he? You know, there are better ways to remove your wedding ring. Aqua regia is a bit extreme don't you think?

Extreme? Mwah....

 

No, I do not think it is that extreme. Of course you need to be careful and know what you are doing. I've been playing around with mixtures of HF, HNO3 and H2SO4 in my home lab and I'm still here to amuse you with my posts .

 

Right now I (on Usenet my name is "Wilco Oelen") am doing experiments with NaCN in aqua regia or concentrated HCl. See this thread on sci.chem:

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.chem/browse_frm/thread/df430f74f5f79588/a43514c184e6f3f8?lnk=raot#a43514c184e6f3f8

 

It is just a matter of knowing what you do and knowing of the risks. Look at the URL posted in reply #22. This shows some pictures of the evil stuff I made .

[woelen]

no probs' date=' I have a few mins remaining, I`ll have a quick go at this now

 

edit: Aha yes, definately NO2 liberated! I can see the gas in the tube against a white paper, the liquid has a slight yellowing (nothing major though), and there`s a white precipitate along with one or 2 undissolved prills of NaNO3.

but Much more of reaction this time [/quote']

YT, that looks good. In fact, aqua regia is not deep yellow, the pale yellow color is quite good. The white stuff, which does not dissolve, is NaCl. Plain salt is next to insoluble in concentrated HCl. Your results will even be better if you crush your prills of NaNO3, before you add them to the HCl. Now, your prills become covered by a layer of insoluble NaCl.

 

Keep in mind though, that aqua regia is not stable on storage. It decomposes irreversibly, giving off NO2, ClNO and Cl2. So, make it just before use and assure that it is warm (not boiling hot!!!) when used. Do NOT store it for more than a day or so. If you store it in a tightly closed container, then that may rupture due to pressure buildup!

[YT2095]

yeah, I left this in the test tube over night, this morning it`s as clear as water again.

actualy when I make aqua-regia I stick to the old boring tried and tested by mixing the 2 acids, that`s how I got my batch of gold chloride (Lance had some). I was actualy just curious as what if anything these 2 ingredients mixed would do, when I get a little more time, I`ll try the Ammonium Chloride and Nitric acid version of it, and compare results. it`s not for any project or that I need the end product for anything, it`s just pure curiosity