Plagiarism, kind of

[Genady]

Several days ago, I've emailed the "Floating Hourglass" puzzle (https://www.scienceforums.net/topic/132371-floating-hourglass/) to a relative, thinking that as former mechanical engineer he might be interested in it. Two days later, I've received his response with a clear and perfect solution. I was impressed and congratulated him with this success.

But I was also suspicious because of the language of his response; it was not how he normally speaks. So, after a short Internet search I found a website, copyrighted 1998, with exactly the same text, verbatim.

His dishonesty deeply offended me. I've taken some next steps but would like to know your opinions about this situation.

 

[iNow]

It seems he cares how you think of him. Probably tried to figure it out, could not, and set out to solve the challenge by any means necessary. Spent the time finding the answer online, itself a time consuming task. Shared it back once in hand. Probably learned something new in the process. 

Why let it bother you? He likely did all this to impress you. 

[zapatos]

There could be 50 reasons he responded the way he did, many of which are perfectly reasonable.

My opinion is that you should always assume the most respectful interpretation of a person's response/words/actions/etc. until you have evidence to the contrary.

[Peterkin]

I can't think of more than one reason: He looked it up and sent off the solution, without taking any of it seriously. My guess is he wasn't really engaged, maybe absorbed in something else but didn't want to let you down:  Here's an answer, go away and stop bothering me.

[Sensei]

Next time create your own unique quiz question, don't "borrow" it from the Internet - that's also plagiarism if you didn't say where you "borrowed" them from..

Edited September 22, 2023 by Sensei

[John Cuthber]

I think Sensei has nailed it.
You copied a puzzle, but seem to be upset that they copied the answer.

[Genady]

  On 9/22/2023 at 6:31 AM, Sensei said:

Next time create your own unique quiz question, don't "borrow" it from the Internet - that's also plagiarism if you didn't say where you "borrowed" them from..

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  On 9/22/2023 at 9:02 AM, John Cuthber said:

I think Sensei has nailed it.
You copied a puzzle, but seem to be upset that they copied the answer.

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I did not copy the puzzle and I did not borrow it. I provided the link. I said where it comes from.

I did not mislead about the source of the puzzle, but they tried to mislead me about the source of their answer.

PS. They knew to search for the answer on the Internet because they knew from me that the puzzle came from the Internet.

[Danijel Gorupec]

I suppose your relative is aware that it is very easy to check if he sourced the answer from the internet. So, he probably did not have an intention to fool you... I guess he would change the wording if he really wanted to deceive.

[Genady]

  On 9/22/2023 at 10:55 AM, Danijel Gorupec said:

I suppose your relative is aware that it is very easy to check if he sourced the answer from the internet. So, he probably did not have an intention to fool you... I guess he would change the wording if he really wanted to deceive.

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It does not seem to be so. He started his response with the words, "I think, that" followed by the copied text. 

  On 9/22/2023 at 4:45 AM, Peterkin said:

I can't think of more than one reason: He looked it up and sent off the solution, without taking any of it seriously. My guess is he wasn't really engaged, maybe absorbed in something else but didn't want to let you down:  Here's an answer, go away and stop bothering me.

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His reply does not indicate so.

  On 9/22/2023 at 3:26 AM, zapatos said:

There could be 50 reasons he responded the way he did, many of which are perfectly reasonable.

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Perhaps, but many of them can be refuted based on details of the exchange and other information.

  On 9/22/2023 at 2:56 AM, iNow said:

It seems he cares how you think of him. Probably tried to figure it out, could not, and set out to solve the challenge by any means necessary. Spent the time finding the answer online, itself a time consuming task. Shared it back once in hand. Probably learned something new in the process. 

Why let it bother you? He likely did all this to impress you. 

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This or other reason, what do you think my response should be. Pretend that I "bought" it? Let him know that I've found his "trick"? Something else?

[Genady]

  On 9/22/2023 at 4:45 AM, Peterkin said:

I can't think of more than one reason: He looked it up and sent off the solution, without taking any of it seriously. My guess is he wasn't really engaged, maybe absorbed in something else but didn't want to let you down:  Here's an answer, go away and stop bothering me.

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I can think of other reasons. For example, he might be a little T****, a "stable genius" and always right.

[TheVat]

There seems to be another possibility.  He figured out the puzzle himself, then checked his own answer on the internet, and when he found a verifying page he liked the way it was worded so he copy/pasted that.  So he could be honest about solving it but still plagiarized - do you and he communicate in a language that is not his first language?  

[John Cuthber]

  On 9/22/2023 at 10:44 AM, Genady said:

they tried to mislead me about the source of their answer.

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They certainly didn't try very hard, did they?
 

[Genady]

  On 9/22/2023 at 1:31 PM, John Cuthber said:

They certainly didn't try very hard, did they?
 

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He did not. Tells me that he thinks I am too primitive. I live on a Caribbean Island you know... Some people are surprised that we even have Internet here.

  On 9/22/2023 at 1:10 PM, TheVat said:

There seems to be another possibility.  He figured out the puzzle himself, then checked his own answer on the internet, and when he found a verifying page he liked the way it was worded so he copy/pasted that.  So he could be honest about solving it but still plagiarized - do you and he communicate in a language that is not his first language?  

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It was a possibility, but he eliminated it himself. When I sent him a link to that website and asked, why the texts are identical, his answer was, "Yes, I read this website with different answers and agreed with this one."

[StringJunky]

  On 9/22/2023 at 12:51 PM, Genady said:

I can think of other reasons. For example, he might be a little T****, a "stable genius" and always right.

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You learned something about him. Absorb it and don't do it again with him. Being family does not automatically mean one will receive honesty. C'est la vie.

[TheVat]

Use a Carribean method.  Make a voodoo doll of the relative..  Then subject it to harsh peer review.  

[Genady]

  On 9/22/2023 at 2:14 PM, StringJunky said:

You learned something about him. Absorb it and don't do it again with him. Being family does not automatically mean one will receive honesty. C'est la vie.

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Absolutely. 100% agree.

[Sensei]

If it bothers you so much that you have to start a thread about it, you can intelligently give your relative a sign that you know he's a crook

e.g. "Unbelievable! Look at this site URL, they have a suspiciously verbatim copy of your answer to my puzzle. What a coincidence! "

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by Sensei

[Genady]

  On 9/22/2023 at 3:16 PM, Sensei said:

If it bothers you so much that you have to start a thread about it, you can intelligently give your relative a sign that you know he's a crook

e.g. "Unbelievable! Look at this site URL, they have a suspiciously verbatim copy of your answer to my puzzle. What a coincidence! "

 

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Yes. This was pretty much what I did. Here is my follow-up email to him::

>>>>>

This brings up even more interesting puzzle. Compare the following texts:
... [from his email]
... [from the website]
Except for a couple of words, the texts are identical. 

Can you explain it?

<<<<<<

 

[joigus]

  On 9/22/2023 at 3:26 AM, zapatos said:

My opinion is that you should always assume the most respectful interpretation of a person's response/words/actions/etc. until you have evidence to the contrary.

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Not always easy to do, but best advice IMO.

[iNow]

  On 9/22/2023 at 11:05 AM, Genady said:

what do you think my response should be.

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Laugh it off. Sip your cuppa tea. Move on with your day

[Peterkin]

Lots more relatives across the sea.

[OldChemE]

My how times have changed.  The last time I saw verbatim answers to a math problem my school gave all 6 of the boys automatic zeroes on the assignment, and retrieved the stolen teachers edition of the textbook they were using.

[CharonY]

  On 9/22/2023 at 11:54 PM, OldChemE said:

My how times have changed.  The last time I saw verbatim answers to a math problem my school gave all 6 of the boys automatic zeroes on the assignment, and retrieved the stolen teachers edition of the textbook they were using.

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Yeah you cannot do that easily anymore. I mean, there is a process you can start (and get the various levels of academic administration involved. And after a lot of time investment, they tend to pass anyway after a stern warning (i.e. nothing). Mostly because administration needs their money as government funding gets slashed.

[zapatos]

My son recently got a mild reprimand for plagiarizing his own work. He was writing two different papers at the same time on a related topic for two different classes and reused a page or so from one paper on the other paper. They were turned in a couple of days apart and the second paper popped up as a violation due to the same text.

I (and he) didn't even know you could plagiarize your own work.

[iNow]

That sounds like a crock of shit if you ask me (the policy, not the story)