Why not use ZnSO4 for sulphuric acid.

[AronN3]

I did a little reading, while everyone wrote, about synthesis of Sulphuric acid using Oxalic acid & Cu,Fe,Mg (Sulphates) . No one were mentioning neither anywhere mentioned Zinc sulphate ^{(neither anyone used it in electrolysis)}  where Zinc Oxalate has almost same solubility as Ferric oxalate . Isn't it possible 🤔 or something I am not seeing! Where i live its much cheaper than Cu,Fe sulphates  

 ^{("MgSO₄ is cheapest however I don't like to use it because of lower success rate")}  

H₂C₂O_4(aq) + ZnSO_4(aq) + (Heat??) = H₂SO_4(aq)+ ZnC₂O_4 (s)

🤕🤕

 

 

[Sensei]

Just use stronger acid with salt of weaker acid..

https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/technical-documents/technical-article/chemistry-and-synthesis/acid-base-chart

 

Use stronger acid than H₂SO₄..

 

[exchemist]

12 hours ago, AronN3 said:

I did a little reading, while everyone wrote, about synthesis of Sulphuric acid using Oxalic acid & Cu,Fe,Mg (Sulphates) . No one were mentioning neither anywhere mentioned Zinc sulphate ^{(neither anyone used it in electrolysis)}  where Zinc Oxalate has almost same solubility as Ferric oxalate . Isn't it possible 🤔 or something I am not seeing! Where i live its much cheaper than Cu,Fe sulphates  

 ^{("MgSO₄ is cheapest however I don't like to use it because of lower success rate")}  

H₂C₂O_4(aq) + ZnSO_4(aq) + (Heat??) = H₂SO_4(aq)+ ZnC₂O_4 (s)

🤕🤕

 

 

Why are you doing this? Sulphuric acid is readily available, surely? 

[John Cuthber]

12 hours ago, AronN3 said:

synthesis of Sulphuric acid using Oxalic acid & Cu,Fe,Mg (Sulphates)

Does that actually work?
 

 

37 minutes ago, exchemist said:

Sulphuric acid is readily available, surely? 

Not retail in the UK.

[exchemist]

3 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

Does that actually work?
 

 

Not retail in the UK.

Ah, possibly not. 

Regarding whether it works, I was wondering about that. If an insoluble chelated metal oxalate is precipitated from an aqueous solution, I guess you are left with an acidic solution with sulphate ions, i.e. dilute sulphuric acid. But it can't be a way to generate pure sulphuric acid. 

 

[AronN3]

Quote

I guess you are left with an acidic solution with sulphate ions, i.e. dilute sulphuric acid. But it can't be a way to generate pure sulphuric acid. 

Yes, later if its boiled then sulphate ion concentration should increase ( making uo to 80-95% sulphuric acid also excess oxalic acid should react afterwards and dissepear ^{[absolute win - win 😀]} ). The thing is a high number of people ^{(even youtubers)} have tried this with CuSO₄ but shouldn’t it be same for ZnSO₄ . 

[exchemist]

41 minutes ago, AronN3 said:

Yes, later if its boiled then sulphate ion concentration should increase ( making uo to 80-95% sulphuric acid also excess oxalic acid should react afterwards and dissepear ^{[absolute win - win 😀]} ). The thing is a high number of people ^{(even youtubers)} have tried this with CuSO₄ but shouldn’t it be same for ZnSO₄ . 

OK, understood. Though this seems to be a very roundabout way to make it. Can you supply a link to show us where you are getting this route from? 

Zn oxalate seems to be insoluble in water so I imagine it might work in the same way. 

[AronN3]

3 hours ago, exchemist said:

OK, understood. Though this seems to be a very roundabout way to make it. Can you supply a link to show us where you are getting this route from? 

That's the point 😓, I followed a video which use Copper sulphate and it worked for me but due to high expense of it i cant make a large amount  of it. Since

 Amount of H₂SO_{4(unit amount)}= 0.6 × CuSO_{4 (unit amount)}  

So i need a lot of Sulphate salts for making medium quantities.

This is the video.

That's why i want to use Zinc Sulphate It has less water content ^{**Cause of monohydrate instead of pentahydrate**} 

Although for copper sulphate to react with water it didn't need any external heat, the reaction was instant how it wasn’t the same for zinc sulphate ^{*dont know if it needed heat or something like ferrous sulphate*} so I was skeptical. It should've worked or am I missing something here.

 

 

19 hours ago, Sensei said:

Just use stronger acid with salt of weaker acid..

https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/technical-documents/technical-article/chemistry-and-synthesis/acid-base-chart

 

Use stronger acid than H₂SO₄..

The only strong acid, I have access is HCl

However its just comes as Tiles cleaner (30% HCl solution ^{*I am not sure what other contents are present at the rest of 70% and it might produce impurities*} ) So its just frustrating. 🙁 

[exchemist]

1 hour ago, AronN3 said:

That's the point 😓, I followed a video which use Copper sulphate and it worked for me but due to high expense of it i cant make a large amount  of it. Since

 Amount of H₂SO_{4(unit amount)}= 0.6 × CuSO_{4 (unit amount)}  

So i need a lot of Sulphate salts for making medium quantities.

This is the video.

That's why i want to use Zinc Sulphate It has less water content ^{**Cause of monohydrate instead of pentahydrate**} 

Although for copper sulphate to react with water it didn't need any external heat, the reaction was instant how it wasn’t the same for zinc sulphate ^{*dont know if it needed heat or something like ferrous sulphate*} so I was skeptical. It should've worked or am I missing something here.

 

 

The only strong acid, I have access is HCl

However its just comes as Tiles cleaner (30% HCl solution ^{*I am not sure what other contents are present at the rest of 70% and it might produce impurities*} ) So its just frustrating. 🙁 

Hmm, a YouTuber who makes a point of trying to get round EU laws. Not sure I approve. 

But purely from the chemistry point of view, if the oxalate is insoluble and precipitates, then that should drive the equilibrium to the right, for a while. As the acidity increases though, less and less of the oxalic acid will dissociate into oxalate ions, so the thing will slow down and stop at some point.  

 

[John Cuthber]

It's a video of the reaction not happening.
There's no precipitate.
And there's no reason to suppose that sulphuric acid is produced.

[AronN3]

1 hour ago, exchemist said:

As the acidity increases though, less and less of the oxalic acid will dissociate into oxalate ions, so the thing will slow down and stop at some point.  

Well, if that's the only inconvenience addition of more water or fast separation of the solution from precipitation might work, however the concern is whether it will work will ZnSO₄ 😮‍💨 I cant find any other direct and simple way. 

 

1 hour ago, John Cuthber said:

It's a video of the reaction not happening.
There's no precipitate.
And there's no reason to suppose that sulphuric acid is produced.

This is another video of the same method  however he managed to make 80% sulphuric acid. I want to do this similar method using Zinc Sulphate 😃

[exchemist]

1 hour ago, AronN3 said:

Well, if that's the only inconvenience addition of more water or fast separation of the solution from precipitation might work, however the concern is whether it will work will ZnSO₄ 😮‍💨 I cant find any other direct and simple way. 

 

This is another video of the same method  however he managed to make 80% sulphuric acid. I want to do this similar method using Zinc Sulphate 😃

Well the pH shows a value of about 1, with indicator paper, which is very approximate. You would get 1.3 with 0.1M oxalic acid: https://www.aqion.de/site/ph-of-organic-acids. So that doesn't prove much on its own.

But it is true that the precipitate looks blue-white, which looks right for copper oxalate. The reaction is referred to here:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_oxalate as a method for making copper oxalate, with sulphuric acid as a byproduct.

 

(This video is by somebody different - a Dutchman by the sound of him. I can't place the earlier one.)

 

If it works with copper sulphate it might work with zinc sulphate, seeing as that too is insoluble in water.

 

 

[Sensei]

On 10/2/2023 at 7:12 PM, AronN3 said:

The only strong acid, I have access is HCl

Look on the Internet for how to make HCl and learn how to do it. I think it is easier at home than sulfuric acid. NaCl is cheap, and the only cost is the electricity bill (which can be reduced, for example, by using solar panels).

Edited October 4, 2023 by Sensei

[exchemist]

1 hour ago, Sensei said:

Look on the Internet for how to make HCl and learn how to do it. I think it is easier at home than sulfuric acid. NaCl is cheap, and the only cost is the electricity bill (which can be reduced, for example, by using solar panels).

How does this work? When you electrolyse NaCl, you evolve H2 and Cl2, and you are left with NaOH, i.e. an alkaline solution.

 

[Arthur Smith]

One bonus of moving to France. Crystalline oxalic acid, copper sulphate as Bordeaux mixture, and sulphuric acid of sufficient strength for most purposes

[Sensei]

1 hour ago, exchemist said:

How does this work? When you electrolyse NaCl, you evolve H2 and Cl2, and you are left with NaOH, i.e. an alkaline solution.

Electrolysis of molten NaCl (or any other salt with a Chlorine atom), not necessarily electrolysis of an aqueous solution of that salt.

e.g.

When sufficiently high voltage and current are used, Chlorine gas is released.. which you need to capture..

The burner is needed only at the beginning, then everything works on its own using electricity alone.

1 hour ago, exchemist said:

and you are left with NaOH, i.e. an alkaline solution.

..which we ignore during electrolysis of brine.. Because we're interested only in Chlorine, or Chlorine and Hydrogen. It will be used to make HCl..

 

 

3 hours ago, Sensei said:

and the only cost is the electricity bill (which can be reduced, for example, by using solar panels).

^^^^

 

[exchemist]

1 hour ago, Sensei said:

Electrolysis of molten NaCl (or any other salt with a Chlorine atom), not necessarily electrolysis of an aqueous solution of that salt.

e.g.

When sufficiently high voltage and current are used, Chlorine gas is released.. which you need to capture..

The burner is needed only at the beginning, then everything works on its own using electricity alone.

..which we ignore during electrolysis of brine.. Because we're interested only in Chlorine, or Chlorine and Hydrogen. It will be used to make HCl..

 

 

^^^^

 

This strikes me as a terrible idea. Capturing large quantities of these gases is risky enough, but for an amateur to attempt to react them is definitely a recipe for an explosion.  

[Sensei]

4 minutes ago, exchemist said:

This strikes me as a terrible idea. Capturing large quantities of these gases is risky enough, but for an amateur to attempt to react them is definitely a recipe for an explosion.  

Not without a reason Humphry Davy had an accident and Faraday had to replace him:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humphry_Davy#Laboratory_incident

 

[exchemist]

43 minutes ago, Sensei said:

Not without a reason Humphry Davy had an accident and Faraday had to replace him:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humphry_Davy#Laboratory_incident

 

Then you should not be recommending this procedure to a person whose expertise you do not know, on a public forum.

[Sensei]

2 minutes ago, exchemist said:

Then you should not be recommending this procedure to a person whose expertise you do not know, on a public forum.

You learn from mistakes. Your own. Or others'.

 

You can say "don't try it at home" to a significant amount of chemistry..

 

Edited October 4, 2023 by Sensei

[exchemist]

46 minutes ago, Sensei said:

You learn from mistakes. Your own. Or others'.

 

You can say "don't try it at home" to a significant amount of chemistry..

 

Indeed. So you should not suggest hazardous procedures without at least pointing out the hazards.

Edited October 4, 2023 by exchemist

[Sensei]

..it's hard to believe that people who write "Caution: Contents Hot" on a cup of coffee have flown to the Moon..

[exchemist]

47 minutes ago, Sensei said:

..it's hard to believe that people who write "Caution: Contents Hot" on a cup of coffee have flown to the Moon..

Don't be an arsehole.  The procedure you were suggesting could easily put someone in hospital.

[John Cuthber]

3 hours ago, Sensei said:

..it's hard to believe that people who write "Caution: Contents Hot" on a cup of coffee have flown to the Moon..

In addition to being a stupid attempt to defend your own bad practice; that's wrong.
The lawyers in Liebeck v. McDonald's Restaurants and the like had never flown to the moon.

[studiot]

On 10/1/2023 at 9:29 PM, AronN3 said:

I did a little reading, while everyone wrote, about synthesis of Sulphuric acid using Oxalic acid & Cu,Fe,Mg (Sulphates) . No one were mentioning neither anywhere mentioned Zinc sulphate ^{(neither anyone used it in electrolysis)}  where Zinc Oxalate has almost same solubility as Ferric oxalate . Isn't it possible 🤔 or something I am not seeing! Where i live its much cheaper than Cu,Fe sulphates  

 ^{("MgSO₄ is cheapest however I don't like to use it because of lower success rate")}  

H₂C₂O_4(aq) + ZnSO_4(aq) + (Heat??) = H₂SO_4(aq)+ ZnC₂O_4 (s)

🤕🤕

 

 

 

I have had little time to follow this squabble but several things are unclear in your OP.

 

Firstly what do you want sulphuric acid for ?

In other words, how much and how pure ?

The stuff is produced and used in large quantities in most developed countries and readily available, suitably prepped for purpose.

The scale of the enterprise is such that it will never be economically viable to produce your own.

 

But then you may not want to actually perform the synthesis, you may just want to discuss how to do it from different starting materials.

 

Over to you to enlighten us so that the best help might be offered.