Hamas attacks Israel with kit rockets and AK47's... US sends aircraft carrier in support.

[StringJunky]

Funny. All the technology in the world won't beat commitment to a cause. As Ukraine shows as well earlier in the war  and it is still pretty artisanal in its weapon development.

Edited October 8, 2023 by StringJunky

[StringJunky]

As an afterthought: Will Netanyahu try to bury his legal problems in amidst the Western faux outrage and hand-wringing we are seeing?

[geordief]

1 hour ago, StringJunky said:

Funny

Not a   bit funny.

Israel has just as much a cause (the right to exist) as Hamas  and is very unlikely to bend the knee.

Ironic that Hamas  may have helped Netanjahu's cause for now (we will see)

[StringJunky]

10 minutes ago, geordief said:

Not a   bit funny.

Israel has just as much a cause (the right to exist) as Hamas  and is very unlikely to bend the knee.

Ironic that Hamas  may have helped Netanjahu's cause for now (we will see)

An aircraft carrier in a street fight... about as much use as chocolate hand grenade. That's why it's funny.

[geordief]

21 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

An aircraft carrier in a street fight... about as much use as chocolate hand grenade. That's why it's funny.

That is a strawman and is not why the aircraft carrier is being moved there ,as you must know.

"Funny" would not be the first word I would start a thread  with on this godawful subject.

[StringJunky]

2 minutes ago, geordief said:

That is a strawman and is not why the aircraft carrier is being moved there ,as you must know.

"Funny" would not be the first word I would start a thread  with on this godawful subject.

Do you know what a strawman is? Funny can mean bizarre.

Quote

WASHINGTON (AP) — Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin said Sunday he has ordered the Ford carrier strike group to sail to the Eastern Mediterranean to be ready to assist Israel after the attack by Hamas that has left more than 1,000 dead on both sides. Americans were reported to be among those killed and missing =AP

 

[TheVat]

3 hours ago, StringJunky said:

As an afterthought: Will Netanyahu try to bury his legal problems in amidst the Western faux outrage and hand-wringing we are seeing?

Seems like that would be the classic distraction tactic.  Guys like Bibi pretty much created the Hamas of today.  And now their timing couldn't be better for bolstering the Likud Party and its corrupt boss.  It was also the 50th anniversary of the 1973 war, which began October 6 of that year. 

Hamas basically just gave Israel its very own 9/11 attack, and an excuse to level Gaza.  I don't know if they're just stupid or fatalistic, maybe both.  

[mistermack]

Any escalation in violence serves the long-term zionist program. Israel can continue to portray itself as a victim, and it's own violence as self-defence. 

I don't think there's any doubt that the government would have know this was coming, and privately welcomed it as just what the doctor ordered. They know how to stoke this stuff up, although you will never hear what they have been doing in the background, to light the fire.

[TheVat]

12 minutes ago, mistermack said:

Any escalation in violence serves the long-term zionist program. Israel can continue to portray itself as a victim, and it's own violence as self-defence. 

I don't think there's any doubt that the government would have know this was coming, and privately welcomed it as just what the doctor ordered. They know how to stoke this stuff up, although you will never hear what they have been doing in the background, to light the fire.

I can see some truth to the first paragraph, but your second went in a tinfoil hat direction I would question.  I can see political opportunists making the most of a war, but welcoming it?  Especially when that attack in the south made Israel's defense forces look inept and clueless and sort of asleep at the wheel.

[StringJunky]

19 minutes ago, TheVat said:

Hamas basically just gave Israel its very own 9/11 attack, and an excuse to level Gaza.  I don't know if they're just stupid or fatalistic, maybe both.  

That's why they took hostages. They might be fatalistic, but they aren't stupid. From what I've been reading it was a very well-planned operation and obviously feinted their intent to everyone sufficiently until the day.

[iNow]

Lebanon/ Hezbollah already weighing in, too. Cue MBS form Saudi Arabia to swoop in as newly appointed regional power center and make a deal, quiet all parties, and position selfs as place where cooler financially minded heads prevail. 

Still watching China and Taiwan, too… Easier to pull shenanigans when everyone’s distracted. Also watching impact from lack of GOP House Speaker preventing ability of US Congress to approve funding for help, and how it impacts new Speaker vote. 

[Sensei]

Slap for slap and no one remembers who slapped first, as this has been going on for centuries, millennia..

 

5 hours ago, StringJunky said:

An aircraft carrier in a street fight... about as much use as chocolate hand grenade. That's why it's funny.

Not exactly. An aircraft carrier can be a sort of "floating military base", without having to establish a real military base on (enemy) land..

 

2 hours ago, mistermack said:

Any escalation in violence serves the long-term zionist program.

Any escalation of violence in the Middle East drives up oil prices..

 

"Follow the money" - some say.

 

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/oil-prices-jump-middle-east-violence-roils-markets-2023-10-08/

"Brent crude rose $4.18, or 4.94%, to $88.76 a barrel by 0120 GMT, while U.S. West Texas Intermediate crude was at $87.02 a barrel, up $4.23, or 5.11%."

 

Edited October 9, 2023 by Sensei

[StringJunky]

20 minutes ago, Sensei said:

Slap for slap and no one remembers who slapped first, as this has been going on for centuries, millennia..

 

Not exactly. An aircraft carrier can be a sort of "floating military base", without having to establish a real military base on (enemy) land..

I know, but it's over-kill, and as for showing strength, which is the US motive, can Hamas even see it? I'm sure they don't have much radar and recon capability. 

Edited October 9, 2023 by StringJunky

[dimreepr]

10 hours ago, TheVat said:

Hamas basically just gave Israel its very own 9/11 attack, and an excuse to level Gaza.  I don't know if they're just stupid or fatalistic, maybe both.

I think it's desperation, their plight is largely being ignored by the world's politicians and press, so they think they have no choice but to provoke a disproportionate response for the world to see and judge; maybe one day they'll realise that provoking a disproportionate response for the world to judge, is far more effective when done peacefully. 

[TheVat]

11 hours ago, StringJunky said:

That's why they took hostages. They might be fatalistic, but they aren't stupid. From what I've been reading it was a very well-planned operation and obviously feinted their intent to everyone sufficiently until the day.

Yeah I'm wondering how the hostages will work out.  Hamas already has said it seeks the release of all Palestinian prisoners (4500 is the number I've seen) in Israeli jails.  Some of the insiders are saying all the Israeli hostages will severely limit Bibi's response, some are saying they will bomb the crap out of Gaza anyway.  I would think public sentiment, in a country where people formerly marched in the streets and rended their garments over one Israeli soldier hostage (Gilad Shalit), would mean they'd have to tread very lightly.  PIJ alone says they have 30, and Hamas has dozens more.  Yes, maybe not stupid.

[StringJunky]

9 minutes ago, TheVat said:

Yeah I'm wondering how the hostages will work out.  Hamas already has said it seeks the release of all Palestinian prisoners (4500 is the number I've seen) in Israeli jails.  Some of the insiders are saying all the Israeli hostages will severely limit Bibi's response, some are saying they will bomb the crap out of Gaza anyway.  I would think public sentiment, in a country where people formerly marched in the streets and rended their garments over one Israeli soldier hostage (Gilad Shalit), would mean they'd have to tread very lightly.  PIJ alone says they have 30, and Hamas has dozens more.  Yes, maybe not stupid.

 

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

I think it's desperation, their plight is largely being ignored by the world's politicians and press, so they think they have no choice but to provoke a disproportionate response for the world to see and judge; maybe one day they'll realise that provoking a disproportionate response for the world to judge, is far more effective when done peacefully. 

Yes, they don't have a lot of options. This is not out of the blue if one follows it frequently, as I'm sure you two agree. Hamas have compressed in a short time what Israel does everyday to them.

[Phi for All]

https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-israel-intel-russia-hamas-attack-1833094

Quote

Donald Trump's sharing of alleged classified intelligence to Russian officials in the White House has come under scrutiny amid a large-scale attack by the Hamas Islamist military group against Israel.

I don't think it's conspiracy to put forth that TFG sold Israel's secrets regarding the Iron Dome defenses, especially when nobody thinks Hamas had the capability. 

[dimreepr]

32 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

 

Yes, they don't have a lot of options. This is not out of the blue if one follows it frequently, as I'm sure you two agree. Hamas have compressed in a short time what Israel does everyday to them.

Indeed, but who is the bad guy???

[geordief]

19 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-israel-intel-russia-hamas-attack-1833094

I don't think it's conspiracy to put forth that TFG sold Israel's secrets regarding the Iron Dome defenses, especially when nobody thinks Hamas had the capability. 

I assumed it was just putting two and two together since the Air Defences' weaknesses came to the fore in the Ukraine war.

Did Hamas do anything other than overload the defences with too many missiles at the same time?

 

I assume they (or Iran ) built up a stockpile of those missiles over the years and fired them all at the same time to overcome the Iron Dome.

 

How vulnerable is the actual Iron Dome itself?Ukraine has taken out  an air defence system in Crimea  and the Naval fleet seems to have now been relocated from there. 

 

I think Netanjahu's head may roll when the intelligence failures become clear since it was not just the missiles (were they to distract attention in part?)

[StringJunky]

9 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Indeed, but who is the bad guy???

UK et al. Our colonial past.

[toucana]

The most extraordinary aspect of Saturday’s attack by Hamas was just how completely blindsided the Israeli intelligence agencies and defence forces were by the assault. Neither Shin Bet the domestic intelligence agency, nor Mossad the foreign intelligence service had any inkling that such a sabbath day attack was even possible - let alone imminent - they appear to have been truly ‘Eyeless in Gaza’.

A lengthy post-mortem will examine how Hamas concealed their military preparations so effectively, by moving much of the planning off-grid  - avoiding telephones, emails and telecommunications in general, and relying instead on couriers and coded paper messages. There will also be considerable interest in how much of the planning was taken off-site with planning meetings held in Syria and Iran who are widely believed to have financed and helped plan the attack. Recent comments by US Foreign Secretary Blinken suggest that the USA was aware of such meetings, but had no knowledge of what was discussed.

Many commentators are comparing the Hamas attacks to the Yom Kippur assault in 1973, but I suspect a better analogy might be the Spring Tet offensive in Vietnam in 1968. That began as a massive surprise attack on command and control centers throughout South Vietnam. The Viet Cong and PAVN leadership launched these co-ordinated assaults during a public holiday, hoping to precipitate a sudden collapse of the South Vietnamese government and a general rebellion against their authority. The Tet offensive failed because the US forces under General Westmoreland quickly neutralised the direct military threat, wiping out over 45,000  of the attackers, and decimating the North Vietnamese armed forces in the process.

The truly destructive legacy of the Tet offensive in 1968 however was its political impact on public opinion in the USA. Vietnam was the first ‘Television War', and the endless images of Viet Cong insurgents running wild through the streets of central Saigon and Hue, and the street massacres that ensued shook the confidence of Americans and its western allies that the war in Vietnam could ever be ‘won’. Even if the  current Gaza conflict does not escalate e.g. with Hezbollah attacking from Lebanon, Hamas will have achieved a similar lasting political impact.

[dimreepr]

2 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

UK et al. Our colonial past.

Not my fault... 

[TheVat]

2 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

UK et al. Our colonial past.

There's some irony, when one reads Arthur Balfour's letter of 2 November 1917...

His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.

Sigh...

[StringJunky]

Just now, dimreepr said:

Not my fault... 

What kind of answer is that?

[dimreepr]

Just now, StringJunky said:

What kind of answer is that?

A truthful one...