Hamas attacks Israel with kit rockets and AK47's... US sends aircraft carrier in support.

[geordief]

6 minutes ago, TheVat said:

There's some irony, when one reads Arthur Balfour's letter of 2 November 1917...

His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.

Sigh...

Who was finally responsible for the setting up of the State of Israel?Was it confirmed by the UN at the time?Were there any dissenting votes?

 

[StringJunky]

Another thing I notice in our media focus, is the amount of detail we are seeing and reports from the Israelis, with their vastly superior media resources, to overwhelm the optics towards Palestinians..

[Sensei]

DNA and genetic studies between the Jews and Palestinians:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Palestinians#Between_the_Jews_and_Palestinians

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews#Levantines

"Many genetic studies have demonstrated that most of the various Jewish ethnic divisions and Druze, Palestinians,[3][8][5][40] Bedouin,[8][5] Lebanese people and other Levantines cluster near one another genetically. They also found substantial genetic overlap between Israeli and Palestinian Arabs and Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews. A small but statistically significant difference was found in the Y-chromosomal haplogroup distributions of Sephardic Jews and Palestinians, but no significant differences were found between Ashkenazi Jews and Palestinians nor between the two Jewish communities."

 

Thus, brothers and sisters fight with their close family..

Edited October 9, 2023 by Sensei

[StringJunky]

58 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-israel-intel-russia-hamas-attack-1833094

I don't think it's conspiracy to put forth that TFG sold Israel's secrets regarding the Iron Dome defenses, especially when nobody thinks Hamas had the capability. 

You've lost me there, Phi.

[geordief]

1 hour ago, Phi for All said:

https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-israel-intel-russia-hamas-attack-1833094

I don't think it's conspiracy to put forth that TFG sold Israel's secrets regarding the Iron Dome defenses, especially when nobody thinks Hamas had the capability. 

As per the story ""As president, I wanted to share with Russia (at an openly scheduled WH meeting) which I have the absolute right to do, facts pertaining to terrorism and airline flight safety," Trump wrote. "Humanitarian reasons, plus I want Russia to greatly step up their fight against Isis and terrorism."

It appears to me  that Trump acted off his own bat without consideration of what the CIA or others were likely to advise him .That would be in character .

 

I wonder what information he may have had access to  that might have ended up with Hamas  which got around the Iron Dome?

 

 

[StringJunky]

5 minutes ago, geordief said:

I wonder what information he may have had access to  that might have ended up with Hamas  which got around the Iron Dome?

Iron DOME is for incoming rockets etc, not people. It was a multi-pronged attack and the rockets were a distraction method.

[geordief]

9 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Iron DOME is for incoming rockets etc, not people. It was a multi-pronged attack and the rockets were a distraction method.

Well you didn't answer my question.The rockets were likely (as I posted above) a distraction ,part of the overall attack.

 

But could Trump have given  away vital information that allowed that part of the plan to be  successful?

 

Or was it   a blindingly obvious ploy (as I also wondered)   after seeing how the Ukraine war was going ,esp regarding air defences?

[StringJunky]

1 minute ago, geordief said:

Well you didn't answer my question.The rockets were likely (as I posted above) a distraction ,part of the overall attack.

 

But could Trump have given  away vital information that allowed that part of the plan to be  successful?

 

Or was it   a blindingly obvious ploy (as I also wondered)   after seeing how the Ukraine war was going ,esp regarding air defences?

I don't know.

 

[TheVat]

4 hours ago, geordief said:

 

But could Trump have given  away vital information that allowed that part of the plan to be  successful?

 

Trump keeps cementing the view of him as a monumental human turd, so it reaches the point where any claim of Trumpian perfidy is plausible.  It is certainly possible that Trump's big mouth could have resulted in Iran assisting Hamas, via Thom Hartman's Russia - Iran - Israel chain.  But I doubt that Trump's cognitive processes have ever been sufficiently organized to actually transmit anything useful, with specific technical details re Iron Dome.   

[StringJunky]

Unusual about face from the EU. Looks like they reacted with their guts, then thought about it:

Quote

EU reverses earlier announcement that it was ‘immediately’ suspending aid to Palestinians
Share
The European Union on late Monday reversed an earlier announcement by an EU commissioner that the bloc was “immediately” suspending aid for Palestinian authorities and instead said it would urgently review such assistance in the wake of the attacks on Israel by Hamas.

No immediate explanation for the reversal was given. -AP

 

[StringJunky]

I see the President is priority-shipping more artillery shells and missiles to help Israel flatten Gaza.

[dimreepr]

22 hours ago, StringJunky said:

UK et al. Our colonial past.

Completely agree and we've been reaping the crop every day since those seeds were spread, all because we politicise the fear of the bad guy with guns and toy rockets.

Imagine if hamas organised a coordinated mass fence cutting protest, with all the freedom fighters carrying backpack's full of present's addressed to the  neighbours across the wire.

The bad guy is far more obvious, and every single death could be the one that tips the balance...

[toucana]

4 hours ago, StringJunky said:

I see the President is priority-shipping more artillery shells and missiles to help Israel flatten Gaza.

It’s not just Gaza. The IDF forces now deployed in operation Iron Sword are also engaged in heavy fighting to the north, up near the border with Lebanon along the UN Blue Line 2000.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8ol1znjHpE

These reports say that IDF special forces neutralised an invasion by militants from Lebanon into the Israeli town of Netu’a in a night action, and subsequently used artillery and air-strikes to take out three major Hezbollah ammunition dumps and HQs at Samoukha, Jabal Al Arab, and Rmaych inside Lebanon.

[DynV]

Iran is not some 3rd-class country and if push comes to shove they'll join in. Anyone that have studied even slightly the Iran-Iraq war know how fierce Iran is.

[mistermack]

Our home secretary is trying to silence support for Hamas, by decreeing that the police should take action, for any noticeable support for Hamas in " Jewish areas". 

Maybe she should define what a "Jewish area" is, and what special laws operate there. And of course, she then has to name the "Moslem areas" and tell us what can and can't be said, in case a moslem might take offence. 

The borders of these "areas" need to be accurately defined for legal purposes. I think we are going to have a lot more "moslem areas" than "Jewish areas" and probably not much in the way of "Christian areas" these days.

[dimreepr]

43 minutes ago, mistermack said:

Our home secretary is trying to silence support for Hamas, by decreeing that the police should take action, for any noticeable support for Hamas in " Jewish areas". 

Maybe she should define what a "Jewish area" is, and what special laws operate there. And of course, she then has to name the "Moslem areas" and tell us what can and can't be said, in case a moslem might take offence. 

The borders of these "areas" need to be accurately defined for legal purposes. I think we are going to have a lot more "moslem areas" than "Jewish areas" and probably not much in the way of "Christian areas" these days.

The way this is being spun, some areas will be labeled "here be monster's" or "fair game" in modern parlance... 

Any collateral damage is just an "oops" away from absolution...

[TheVat]

Looks like Hamas crossed that line, in terms of atrocities against civilians, where the two state solution is essentially dead.  I am sorry for the Palestinian people, most just trying to survive, whose future has been torpedoed by Hamas.  Like many people in the world, the desecration of corpses and other Geneva violations erodes my sympathies.

[StringJunky]

31 minutes ago, TheVat said:

Looks like Hamas crossed that line, in terms of atrocities against civilians, where the two state solution is essentially dead.  I am sorry for the Palestinian people, most just trying to survive, whose future has been torpedoed by Hamas.  Like many people in the world, the desecration of corpses and other Geneva violations erodes my sympathies.

Israel has lowered itself to the same level in response. Children constitute about 50% of the Palestinian population and they are currently getting blown to bits by remote control because Israel is trying to kill the 0.5% that is Hamas.

[TheVat]

34 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Israel has lowered itself to the same level in response. Children constitute about 50% of the Palestinian population and they are currently getting blown to bits by remote control because Israel is trying to kill the 0.5% that is Hamas.

Yes, there are no Good Guys in this conflict.  And Israel didn't have to lower themselves very far - they have always paid lip service to "warning civilians in advance," so they could evacuate, but that's just putting lipstick on a warthog, it's clear they have no respect for innocent Palestinian lives.  Or, apparently, the lives of Israeli hostages.  All is collateral damage.  

 

[StringJunky]

24 minutes ago, TheVat said:

Yes, there are no Good Guys in this conflict.  And Israel didn't have to lower themselves very far - they have always paid lip service to "warning civilians in advance," so they could evacuate, but that's just putting lipstick on a warthog, it's clear they have no respect for innocent Palestinian lives.  Or, apparently, the lives of Israeli hostages.  All is collateral damage.  

 

The rhetoric the Israeli administration has been coming out with shows that they are no better.

I found it interesting the difference in attitudes between some US college admin and their students is quite marked. The students tending to be pro-Palestinian, saying things like "Nothing happens in a vacuum" and the admin outraged at them for not viscerally responding. There seems to be an age thing going on there. 

Edited October 11, 2023 by StringJunky

[mistermack]

Peoples opinions don't come out of a vacuum. We are carefully fed our opinions, by a combination of government and mass media. 

Older people have been sucking it up for longer, so they are generally more on message. 

[StringJunky]

3 hours ago, mistermack said:

Peoples opinions don't come out of a vacuum. We are carefully fed our opinions, by a combination of government and mass media. 

Older people have been sucking it up for longer, so they are generally more on message. 

Yep and less fluid to change their approach as situations change.

[Alex_Krycek]

On 10/9/2023 at 9:59 PM, StringJunky said:

Another thing I notice in our media focus, is the amount of detail we are seeing and reports from the Israelis, with their vastly superior media resources, to overwhelm the optics towards Palestinians..

I've seen Channel 4 (UK news) cover the Gaza situation extensively from the Palestinian point of view.  They seem to offer a relatively fair lens through which to view these events.  

This book, Killing in the Name of Identity, is quite good at looking into the collective psychology perpetuating such conflicts.

[Sensei]

On 10/11/2023 at 8:19 PM, mistermack said:

Peoples opinions don't come out of a vacuum. We are carefully fed our opinions, by a combination of government and mass media. 

Older people have been sucking it up for longer, so they are generally more on message. 

If I put your post into the translator and vice versa, I get:

"Older people have sucked it up longer, so they are generally more up to date. "

What did you mean when you said that they are more "fed"? Accustomed, indoctrinated, stupefied?

The indoctrinated person shares the same view that was pressed upon him live..

Are you indoctrinated by government and mass media?

 

 

 

What is happening in Gaza is basically mass murder and the creation of new "terrorists" in the coming years and decades..

When you bomb people who have nothing to do with the attack on X, Y, Z, survivors, family, friends, etc. etc. expect. Revenge. And the cycle begins...

 

 

 

Hamas committed mass murder, (because of crimes committed by Israel you have no idea about..)

And then Israel committed mass murder. Multiplied by 5x by now.

And created even more enemies wanting to revenge and retaliation..

 

[mistermack]

1 hour ago, Sensei said:

If I put your post into the translator and vice versa, I get:

"Older people have sucked it up longer, so they are generally more up to date. "

What did you mean when you said that they are more "fed"? Accustomed, indoctrinated, stupefied?

Well, I was claiming that the longer you are fed a message, the more indoctrinated you become. If it didn't work, they wouldn't do it. But it's a numbers game, it's not going to work on everyone, but enough people soak it up to make it worthwhile. 

 

1 hour ago, Sensei said:

Are you indoctrinated by government and mass media?

I'm sure we are. It varies from country to country. Here in the UK we are fed a slightly subtle diet of indoctrination. The number one message is that Monarchy = Good. This is in spite of the rapid fall in popularity, every media outlet is fully on message, constantly feeding us the line of how indispensable the royals are, how hard-working etc. etc. 

And the second big message is that multiculturalism = good. Virtually every commercial on tv presents a beautiful and happy and successful mixed-race couple, even though the actual incidence of mixed race couples is very very low. Also, news programs and drama seem to have an obligatory stock of multi-ethnic representation, with a good dose of women and disabled stirred in for good measure. I don't mind the actual message, I just object to being force-fed it. 

In the current political situation in this country, it's getting harder and harder to voice a criticism of Israel. There has been for at least the last ten years a concentrated program of portraying anti Israel sentiment as anti-semitism. It's not accidental. It goes on behind the scenes. 

They've been so successful, that they've pretty much convinced the public that the Labour Party is anti-semitic , even though it's members are only expressing anti-zionist views. 

I don't know who is pulling the strings behind the scenes, but over time, they get what they want, and they didn't have to stand for election to do it.