Hamas attacks Israel with kit rockets and AK47's... US sends aircraft carrier in support.

[MigL]

16 minutes ago, zapatos said:

I forgot what it was like trying to engage with you.

Oooh.
And I thought I was unforgettable ...

[CharonY]

15 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Who has the upperhand on the news atm? The less we hear from Gaza, the optics look better for the Israelis because they gain control of the media narrative.

I think that heavily depends on what sources you look at. Humanitarian organizations (Unicef for example) seem to focus on the humanitarian crisis. The issue that the Israelis have (I think) is that they do not have a good morning after narrative. They have been attacked and everything now is framed on retaliation. The most positive interpretation here is the self-defense narrative. Yet even so, I have not read much beyond incapacitating Hamas. Multiple voices (including Israelis) have wondered what is going to happen after (if) that is achieved. What is going to happen to the displaced? Who is going to govern Gaza? I think the immediate response to the terror attack has raised sufficient international concerns regarding the humanitarian cost that it is not going to be an all-in support anymore. 

Sure, Hamas is using their own folks as victims, an I think the world has mostly moved on from accepting total war scenarios where an unlimited number of civilian casualties can be just ignored (which to some degree happened during the Iraq wars).

Another aspect of the media wars is that Israel's leadership is embroiled in a blame war (and comes in the wake of political strife surround Israel's judiciary). So a unified message is a bit hard to get out. 

[StringJunky]

3 minutes ago, CharonY said:

I think that heavily depends on what sources you look at. Humanitarian organizations (Unicef for example) seem to focus on the humanitarian crisis. The issue that the Israelis have (I think) is that they do not have a good morning after narrative. They have been attacked and everything now is framed on retaliation. The most positive interpretation here is the self-defense narrative. Yet even so, I have not read much beyond incapacitating Hamas. Multiple voices (including Israelis) have wondered what is going to happen after (if) that is achieved. What is going to happen to the displaced? Who is going to govern Gaza? I think the immediate response to the terror attack has raised sufficient international concerns regarding the humanitarian cost that it is not going to be an all-in support anymore. 

Yes, I agree, but what I meant was the current active suppression of communication utilities by Israel on Gaza from Palestinians to rest of the world.

[CharonY]

1 minute ago, StringJunky said:

Yes, I agree, but what I meant was the current active suppression of communication utilities by Israel on Gaza from Palestinians to rest of the world.

I think that the messaging at least starting with the 24h threat by Israeli forces has created a sense that no good will come out of it. Even no communications from Gaza is likely going to interpreted in a negative way. And realistically, the only positive scenario I can see where Israel can start a PR blitz is if they manage to free the hostages. 

[StringJunky]

1 minute ago, CharonY said:

I think that the messaging at least starting with the 24h threat by Israeli forces has created a sense that no good will come out of it. Even no communications from Gaza is likely going to interpreted in a negative way. 

Looking over the internet, the weight of support for Gazans is pretty high, so I think most thoughtful people are on high alert to geopolitical chicanery from LIkud et al.

[CharonY]

I do appreciate that Israel (even if they are not innocent in the events) are between a rock and a hard place. That being said, I read an interesting opinion piece (by Friedman, but surprisingly thoughtful) where he contrasts the actions with the 2008 terror attack in Mumbai which was carried out by a group with links to Pakistan's military intelligence.

Quote

Israel should keep the door open for a humanitarian cease-fire and prisoner exchange that will also allow Israel to pause and reflect on exactly where it is going with its rushed Gaza military operation — and the price it could pay over the long haul.

That is why I raise the Indian example. Because targeted use of force with limited, achievable goals may serve Israel’s long-term security and prosperity more than an open-ended war to eradicate Hamas. I hope Israel is stress-testing the costs and benefits of both approaches.

A pause could also allow the people of Gaza to take stock of what Hamas’s attack on Israel — and Israel’s totally predictable response — has done to their lives, families, homes and businesses. What exactly did Hamas think it would accomplish with this war for the people of Gaza, thousands of whom were traveling to work in Israel every day or exporting agricultural products and other goods across the Gaza-Israel border just a few weeks ago? Hamas has gotten way too much understanding and not enough hard questions.

 

[StringJunky]

One of the ideas being floated by an Israeli Ministry is dumping the Gazans in Egypt. This policy idea was drafted Oct 13th. Nakba 2023 coming to a screen near you soon, it looks like.

Quote

The document’s authors deem this alternative to be the most desirable for Israel’s security.

The document proposes moving Gaza’s civilian population to tent cities in northern Sinai, then building permanent cities and an undefined humanitarian corridor. A security zone would be established inside Israel to block the displaced Palestinians from entering. The report did not say what would become of Gaza once its population is cleared out.

Egypt’s Foreign Ministry did not immediately respond to a request for comment on the report. But Egypt has made clear throughout this latest war that it does not want to take in a wave of Palestinian refugees.

Egypt has long feared that Israel wants to force a permanent expulsion of Palestinians into its territory, as happened during the war surrounding Israel’s independence. Egypt ruled Gaza between 1948 and 1967, when Israel captured the territory, along with the West Bank and east Jerusalem. The vast majority of Gaza’s population are the descendants of Palestinian refugees uprooted from what is now Israel.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-gaza-population-transfer-hamas-egypt-palestinians-refugees-5f99378c0af6aca183a90c631fa4da5a

 

Edited October 31, 2023 by StringJunky

[iNow]

El-Sisi may have something to say about that 

[StringJunky]

23 minutes ago, iNow said:

El-Sisi may have something to say about that 

I'm sure he will. Israel's actions are  predictable from their policies. They're only interested in ethnically-cleansing the area. Pretty obvious, really.

Edited October 31, 2023 by StringJunky

[MigL]

SOME Israeli policy makers have proposed the 'ethnic cleansing' solution to the Palestinian problem.

Meanwhile the elected Palestinian government, Hamas, has, as its stated mandate, the 'ethnic cleansing' of the state of Israel off the face of the Earth.

Seems a LOT more 'obvious' to me, String Junky.

[StringJunky]

4 minutes ago, MigL said:

SOME Israeli policy makers have proposed the 'ethnic cleansing' solution to the Palestinian problem.

Meanwhile the elected Palestinian government, Hamas, has, as its stated mandate, the 'ethnic cleansing' of the state of Israel off the face of the Earth.

Seems a LOT more 'obvious' to me, String Junky.

M.A.D.

[iNow]

1 hour ago, StringJunky said:

They're only interested in ethnically-cleansing the area.

I urge caution against painting everyone with the same one broad brush. We can agree on several problematic policies, but one of the problems we’re confronting right now is the need not to lose sight of the humanity of each individual involved.

I’m sure you agree that many Israeli's find the idea of “ethnically cleansing the area” to be abhorrent. 

[TheVat]

2 hours ago, StringJunky said:

One of the ideas being floated by an Israeli Ministry is dumping the Gazans in Egypt. This policy idea was drafted Oct 13th. Nakba 2023 coming to a screen near you soon, it looks like.

 

Wow.  If folks thought historical oppression and dispossession set up Palestinian grievances, that's all going to look like a few stubbed toes when two million people are exiled.  Not that Egypt would go along with that.  I would hope a majority of Israelis push their militant government for something more humane.  Someone's got to say enough is enough and get beyond policies of revenge.  

If my family were murdered by terrorists, I wouldn't say, hey go over to their country and kill thousands of innocent civilians and children, yeah that'll fix things.  

[iNow]

55 minutes ago, MigL said:

Meanwhile the elected Palestinian government, Hamas,

Remind me, when was that last election again?

[StringJunky]

20 minutes ago, iNow said:

I urge caution against painting everyone with the same one broad brush. We can agree on several problematic policies, but one of the problems we’re confronting right now is the need not to lose sight of the humanity of each individual involved.

I’m sure you agree that many Israeli's find the idea of “ethnically cleansing the area” to be abhorrent. 

My reference is the Israeli far right and what they've said. They have their fingers in these pies, so that's worst it can theoretically be... which has to be accounted for.

The sensible Israelis are the not currently the squeaky wheels that are needed to placate this situation.

[MigL]

47 minutes ago, TheVat said:

I would hope a majority of Israelis push their militant government for something more humane. 

I would hope the majority of Palestinians push their terrorist government for something more humane.
Yet we have young Palestinian/Hamas terrorists calling their mother, on Oct 7, to say " Be proud of me mother; I have killed more than ten Jews today "

[Sensei]

20 minutes ago, MigL said:

I would hope the majority of Palestinians push their terrorist government for something more humane.

Whether someone is a terrorist or not depends on one's point of view. For one side someone is a terrorist, for the other a hero. And vice versa. In ancient times the word barbarian was used instead of terrorist. It is just such a word to disgust the other side and frighten the nation.

20 minutes ago, MigL said:

Yet we have young Palestinian/Hamas terrorists calling their mother, on Oct 7, to say " Be proud of me mother; I have killed more than ten Jews today "

..and what do Israeli soldiers/terrorists say to their mothers when they return home? Exactly the same..

Watch some early American western (prior political correctness) and you will also see an American version of this, but with Indians instead.

The Israelis have been displacing Palestinians over and over again and populating the new lands with Israeli settlers. Just as the US has been resettling Indians. But the US has enough land, unlike the Middle East.

Do you have any idea how dense is Gaza Strip? 6500 people/km² (London 5700). They were pushed into a "camp" there by Israeli settlers, and the soldiers working for them, and the entire apparatus ("government").

Now imagine what happens if you start firing rockets (real rockets, not home-made crap) into such densely populated area..

20 minutes ago, MigL said:

Yet we have young Palestinian/Hamas terrorists calling their mother, on Oct 7, to say " Be proud of me mother; I have killed more than ten Jews today "

...actually something like "I avenged the death of our father, grandfather, mother, grandmother, child" etc.

 

[CharonY]

While I am not disagreeing with the sentiment, I think we can largely agree that murdering children and non-combatants is deplorable. It matters little in the end if it is done targeted or willingly as collateral. Both actions fuel the cycle of hatred and it takes folks with a superior moral compasses of which there are many outspoken Palestinians as well as Israelis. Unfortunately, they are not in the majority and there are folks benefitting from the carnage.

3 hours ago, MigL said:

Yet we have young Palestinian/Hamas terrorists calling their mother, on Oct 7, to say " Be proud of me mother; I have killed more than ten Jews today "

I will also note that settlers and IDF have killed a fair amount of Palestinians in the West Bank over the years, so getting rid of Hamas is apparently not a sufficient solution.

[dimreepr]

9 hours ago, MigL said:

I would hope the majority of Palestinians push their terrorist government for something more humane.
Yet we have young Palestinian/Hamas terrorists calling their mother, on Oct 7, to say " Be proud of me mother; I have killed more than ten Jews today "

Imagine the life that would need to be lived for an otherwise ordinary human being to say that and expect his mother's validation?

There are no bad guy's in this, because all the good guy's are drowned out by this sort of noise.

[iNow]

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

There are no bad guy's in this, because all the good guy's are drowned out by this sort of noise.

The "good guys" are definitely being drowned out by noise. No doubt there, but there are absolutely "bad guys" involved too, and it's not just on a single side. 

Edited November 1, 2023 by iNow

[dimreepr]

1 minute ago, iNow said:

but there are absolutely "bad guys" involved too, and it's not just on a single side. 

Yes but all they do is cancel each other out, but never to zero.

[StringJunky]

The new House speaker is supported by the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC). 

Quote

AIPAC, for its part, is pushing Congress to provide additional funding to Israel amid the ongoing war. In an ominous statement on Monday, AIPAC tweeted, “We strongly support the measure to fully fund critical security assistance for Israel in its fight to destroy Hamas. We recognize that this is the first step in a process that will continue to unfold. Each step of the process, we will work for overwhelming bipartisan Congressional support for this critical assistance.” https://theintercept.com/2023/11/01/mike-johnson-donor-aipac-israel/

They have a plum lobbying position with him on their debit card, then. They've popped $25000 in his political account, so far.

Edited November 1, 2023 by StringJunky

[J.C.MacSwell]

On 11/1/2023 at 10:10 AM, dimreepr said:

Yes but all they do is cancel each other out, but never to zero.

We wish. The problem is they cancel out too many of the good, too many of the indifferent, and much too many of the innocent.

(not criticizing your point Dim, really just taking up your choice of words to make a different point)

Edited November 2, 2023 by J.C.MacSwell

[iNow]

Couldn’t agree more 

[iNow]

In a move that makes matters badly worse, apparently Russia’s Wagner Group intends to send air defense systems to Lebanon’s Hezbollah. 

I'm tired of all these wars because one group thinks their imaginary friend is better than the imaginary friend of other groups.