Hamas attacks Israel with kit rockets and AK47's... US sends aircraft carrier in support.

[StringJunky]

4 hours ago, iNow said:

In a move that makes matters badly worse, apparently Russia’s Wagner Group intends to send air defense systems to Lebanon’s Hezbollah. 

I'm tired of all these wars because one group thinks their imaginary friend is better than the imaginary friend of other groups. 

Predictable. A lot of groups/countries  have an interest.

[dimreepr]

On 11/2/2023 at 11:57 PM, J.C.MacSwell said:

We wish. The problem is they cancel out too many of the good, too many of the indifferent, and much too many of the innocent.

(not criticizing your point Dim, really just taking up your choice of words to make a different point)

Just to add to my choice of word's, Hamas forces Isreal to fire on an ambulance; a good guy would stay his hand, at that point...

[mistermack]

Israel kills about 9,000 civilians in order to kill a few hundred Hamas fighters. And they call it self defence. Real self defence would have involved more security around Gaza in the first place.

I really do think that Israel wanted all of this. They enticed Hamas to launch an attack with lapse security, so that they would have an excuse to go into Gaza. It has a whiff of "final solution" about it. A few thousand Israeli lives lost is worth it to people like Benjamin Netanyahu, it advances the eradication of the "Palestinian Problem" and solidifies his own position. 

A few weeks ago, he was on a growing rack, with anti government demonstrations and reservists refusing to serve. All of that is history now. Sheer luck? I don't think so. 

[MigL]

4 minutes ago, mistermack said:

I really do think that Israel wanted all of this. They enticed Hamas to launch an attack with lapse security, so that they would have an excuse to go into Gaza. It has a whiff of "final solution" about it.

Sure.
And women want to be raped.
They dress provocatively to entice men to commit rape so that men will be jailed and feminists will rule the world.
Seriously, how do you come up with this stuff ?
And do you mind if I call you an anti-Semite ?

 B Netanyahu is still in deep shit; I don't see him lasting after the end of this special operation ( to use V Putin's words; didn't you defend him also ? )

[mistermack]

11 minutes ago, MigL said:

And do you mind if I call you an anti-Semite ?

Not if you can back it up with facts. Only an asshole would indulge in name calling, so I'm sure the facts are on their way. 

[dimreepr]

35 minutes ago, mistermack said:

Israel kills about 9,000 civilians in order to kill a few hundred Hamas fighters. And they call it self defence. Real self defence would have involved more security around Gaza in the first place.

I really do think that Israel wanted all of this. They enticed Hamas to launch an attack with lapse security, so that they would have an excuse to go into Gaza. It has a whiff of "final solution" about it. A few thousand Israeli lives lost is worth it to people like Benjamin Netanyahu, it advances the eradication of the "Palestinian Problem" and solidifies his own position. 

A few weeks ago, he was on a growing rack, with anti government demonstrations and reservists refusing to serve. All of that is history now. Sheer luck? I don't think so. 

This is the noise of the good folk that thinks "they" can't be bad... 

Not a compliment @mistermack

[TheVat]

1 hour ago, mistermack said:

Not if you can back it up with facts. Only an asshole would indulge in name calling, so I'm sure the facts are on their way. 

Equating critcism of militant Zionism and Likud policies with antisemitism is what people do when they opt for emotional appeals over reasoned debate.  You may reasonably ignore such.

2 hours ago, mistermack said:

Israel kills about 9,000 civilians in order to kill a few hundred Hamas fighters. And they call it self defence. Real self defence would have involved more security around Gaza in the first place.

I really do think that Israel wanted all of this. They enticed Hamas to launch an attack with lapse security, so that they would have an excuse to go into Gaza. It has a whiff of "final solution" about it.

Not agreeing, but I can't say it is impossible that an extreme cadre within the government would try this.  There is certainly an amoral element in Israeli command, just as there is in Hamas.  

[mistermack]

2 hours ago, MigL said:

Sure.
And women want to be raped.

I've never said that.

2 hours ago, MigL said:

They dress provocatively to entice men to commit rape so that men will be jailed and feminists will rule the world.

I've never said that.

 

2 hours ago, MigL said:

Seriously, how do you come up with this stuff ?

I didn't. You did. 

 

2 hours ago, MigL said:

And do you mind if I call you an anti-Semite ?

I'm still waiting for the facts behind that pathetic name-calling stunt.

2 hours ago, MigL said:

B Netanyahu is still in deep shit; I don't see him lasting after the end of this special operation

Considering all the things you see which are not there, I'll have to take that as utter drivel. As usual. 

 

18 minutes ago, TheVat said:

Not agreeing, but I can't say it is impossible that an extreme cadre within the government would try this. 

I started my post with " I think ". Nobody will ever know if it was deliberate. But if you look at the forces that Israel has, and the intelligence network, and the intelligence capability of the US, then it looks obvious to me that they were making very little effort at defence, and were hoping something would kick off. Maybe they didn't expect such a big strike by Hamas, but then again, in the context of the future of Israel, that was just a scratch, compared to the gains they are aiming at. 

And on a personal level, Netanyahu's own position is already benefitting. He still has national disgrace hanging over him in the courts, unless he can keep control.

[MigL]

3 hours ago, mistermack said:

Not if you can back it up with facts. Only an asshole would indulge in name calling, so I'm sure the facts are on their way. 

You can like Palestinian people but hate the methods they use, just as you can like Israeli people ( some of whom are Palestinian ) but hate the methods they use.
That is a perfectly acceptable discussion to have.
But hating Jews and ascribing all sorts of bad intentions to them, like having 1400 of their people butchered and over 200 kidnapped, means you, and the person who up-voted your ignorant post, are anti-Semite.
( or possibly, had a great uncle named Adolf )

Is that 'asshole' enough for you ?

Edited November 4, 2023 by MigL

[StringJunky]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

You can like Palestinian people but hate the methods they use, just as you can like Israeli people ( some of whom are Palestinian ) but hate the methods they use.
That is a perfectly acceptable discussion to have.
But hating Jews and ascribing all sorts of bad intentions to them, like having 1400 of their people butchered and over 200 kidnapped, means you, and the person who up-voted your ignorant post, are anti-Semite.
( or possibly, had a great uncle named Adolf )

Is that 'asshole' enough for you ?

Not all Jews live in Israel. Not all Jews are Zionists. Not all anti-Zionists are Anti-Semite. Scooping people all up as one group is exactly what Adolf did.

Edited November 4, 2023 by StringJunky

[MigL]

And that changes the point how ?
Mistermack hates Israeli Jews and ALL others that support them.
Reminds me of idiots who claimed the World Trade Center was brought down by the American Government and Big Business because it is extremely valuable real estate.

I guess if you can't make a valid argument, you use demerit points ...

Edited November 4, 2023 by MigL

[StringJunky]

50 minutes ago, MigL said:

And that changes the point how ?
Mistermack hates Israeli Jews and ALL others that support them.
Reminds me of idiots who claimed the World Trade Center was brought down by the American Government and Big Business because it is extremely valuable real estate.

I guess if you can't make a valid argument, you use demerit points ...

Not I. 

Look how different the area is now from what was conceived by the UN.

You can see with my annotations that Israel chopped gaza conveniently to separate Islamic Jordan and Egypt by shrinking most of Gaza up to the line. All they have now is two Israeli controlled checkpoints into Egypt.:

11 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Not I. 

Look how different the area is now from what was conceived by the UN.

You can see with my annotations that Israel chopped gaza conveniently to separate Islamic Jordan and Egypt by shrinking most of Gaza up to the line. All they have now is two Israeli controlled checkpoints into Egypt.:

Looks like systemic suppression to me.

5 hours ago, mistermack said:

And on a personal level, Netanyahu's own position is already benefitting. He still has national disgrace hanging over him in the courts, unless he can keep control.

I take it for granted now Netanyahu's MO in all this is 'burying bad personal news'.

Edited November 4, 2023 by StringJunky

[MigL]

And we can discuss the policies that Israel used to get to the situation we are in today.
As well as the policies by Arab neighbors, and the Palestinians themselves, who contributed to the mess.
You might even find that we agree on a lot of things.

But that is not what I object to in Mistermack's post.
He makes the explicit claim that Israel welcomed the death of 1400 of their people in a bloody massacre, as well as the kidnapping of over 200 people, who have not been released yet, all as an excuse to gain a little sliver of nearly worthless land.

That's like saying it's a good thing Hitler killed 6 Million Jews as it gave the Allies an excuse to wage WW2 more determinately and finally win it.

[StringJunky]

32 minutes ago, MigL said:

And we can discuss the policies that Israel used to get to the situation we are in today.
As well as the policies by Arab neighbors, and the Palestinians themselves, who contributed to the mess.
You might even find that we agree on a lot of things.

But that is not what I object to in Mistermack's post.
He makes the explicit claim that Israel welcomed the death of 1400 of their people in a bloody massacre, as well as the kidnapping of over 200 people, who have not been released yet, all as an excuse to gain a little sliver of nearly worthless land.

That's like saying it's a good thing Hitler killed 6 Million Jews as it gave the Allies an excuse to wage WW2 more determinately and finally win it.

The error he has made is painting the whole group with the idea.. sound familiar? Given that there are extreme nationalists in the governing coalition that welcome any opportunities to pursue their cause, it's probably correct  regarding them.

Edited November 4, 2023 by StringJunky

[Phi for All]

1 hour ago, StringJunky said:

Looks like systemic suppression to me.

Has anyone mentioned the Ben Gurion Canal Project, that ends up just a little north of the Gaza Strip on the Med? They started about a year ago, and it will compete with the Suez Canal (which made Egypt almost US$8B last year). They'll be able to handle a LOT more ships with less waiting time, but only if they can guarantee the safety of those crossing. 

[StringJunky]

25 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

Has anyone mentioned the Ben Gurion Canal Project, that ends up just a little north of the Gaza Strip on the Med? They started about a year ago, and it will compete with the Suez Canal (which made Egypt almost US$8B last year). They'll be able to handle a LOT more ships with less waiting time, but only if they can guarantee the safety of those crossing. 

Thanks. I shall look into that.

[mistermack]

34 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

The error he has made is painting the whole group with the idea..

Where did I do that? The orders come from the top. And I put it up as a suggestion. I look who's benefitting, and it's Netanyahu and the militant Zionist parties. They are the ones with the motive, and they're in power. 

This sort of "sacrifice" tactic is hardly new. Winston Churchill employed it at the start of WW2, when the RAF were getting bombed to bits by the Luftwaffe. He sent bombers over to bomb Berlin, ( i think it was ) in the desperate hope that Hitler would divert his onslaught from airfields to London. He knew perfectly well that it would cost many thousands of civilian lives, but he judged it was a price worth paying. 

Compared to the London Blitz, the Hamas attack was a skirmish. 

Wikipedia says this : 

"The first RAF raid on Berlin took place on the night of 25 August 1940; 95 aircraft were dispatched to bomb Tempelhof Airport near the centre of Berlin and Siemensstadt, of which 81 dropped their bombs in and around Berlin,[11][12] and while the damage was slight, the psychological effect on Hitler was greater. The bombing raids on Berlin prompted Hitler to order the shift of the Luftwaffe's target from British airfields and air defenses to British cities."

 

 

[StringJunky]

Things seem to be hotting up with the Israeli population internally:

Quote

JERUSALEM, Nov 4 (Reuters) - Police held back protesters outside the residence of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Saturday, amid widespread anger at the failures that led to last month's deadly attack by Hamas gunmen on communities around the Gaza Strip.

Waving blue and white Israeli flags and chanting "Jail now!", a crowd in the hundreds pushed through police barriers around Netanyahu's residence in Jerusalem.

The protest, which coincided with a poll showing more than three quarters of Israelis believe Netanyahu should resign, underlined the growing public fury at their political and security leaders.

Netanyahu has so far not accepted personal responsibility for the failures that allowed the surprise assault which saw hundreds of Hamas gunmen storm into southern Israel on Oct. 7, killing more than 1,400 people and taking at least 240 hostage.

As the initial shock has faded, public anger has grown, with many families of the hostages held in Gaza bitterly critical of the government response and calling for their relatives to be brought home.   https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/protesters-outside-israeli-pm-netanyahus-house-anger-grows-2023-11-04/

 

[mistermack]

17 hours ago, StringJunky said:

Things seem to be hotting up with the Israeli population internally:

I think that shows that it's not just me, that suspects this was something darker than negligence. The Israel military are not generally known for a negligent attitude. 

[MigL]

Now you claim that B Netanyahu's drastic fall in popularity is evidence that Oct 7  was something 'darker' than negligence.

Previously you claimed

On 11/4/2023 at 11:48 AM, mistermack said:

And on a personal level, Netanyahu's own position is already benefitting.

in the same postwhere you claimed thay it was 'obvious to you' that little effort was made to repel the Oct 7 attack and let 1400 people die, as an excuse to wage war on Gaza.

What will you claim next ?
That since the sky is blue, that must be evidence of nefarious motives by the Israelis ?

( the scatter-gun approach to discussion; throw shit against the wall, and see what sticks )

Edited November 5, 2023 by MigL

[mistermack]

I'm still waiting for facts, not windy bullshit.

[geordief]

20 minutes ago, MigL said:

Now you claim that B Netanyahu's drastic fall in popularity is evidence that Oct 7  was something 'darker' than negligence.

Previously you claimed

in the same postwhere you claimed thay it was 'obvious to you' that little effort was made to repel the Oct 7 attack and let 1400 people die, as an excuse to wage war on Gaza.

What will you claim next ?
That since the sky is blue, that must be evidence of nefarious motives by the Israelis ?

( the scatter-gun approach to discussion; throw shit against the wall, and see what sticks )

Do you not have suspicions that the Israeli government went soft on Hamas  in part because they had religious right partners in government  who may have felt sympathy to fellow fanatics "across the aisle"?

I mean ,if they had a part in encouraging Hamas at first did they feel safer/more comfortable with a religious opponent rather than a secular one?

If this intelligence failure is all cock up and no conniving at all then that will be irrelevant.

 

But I have a very low opinion of Netanyahu and am prepared to be shocked at his role (if any) in what happened

[Sensei]

1 hour ago, mistermack said:

I'm still waiting for facts, not windy bullshit.

..how do you verify if something is fact or bullshit.. ?

 

[iNow]

17 minutes ago, Sensei said:

..how do you verify if something is fact or bullshit.. ?

 

Is a fact when he agrees, and bullshit when he doesn’t. 

(Too the group)

Is entirely possible that Bibi wanted an excuse to invade, ignored responding to earlier intel and threats to make that more likely, and figured the Israeli people would ultimately rally around him and get distracted from his other attempts to seize power and protect his own ass.

It’s an entirely valid speculation and reasonable, too. We just need to quite steer clear away from treating that as fact or bullshit since we’ll never know either way and it will forever remain merely an opinion. 

Edited November 6, 2023 by iNow

[CharonY]

4 hours ago, geordief said:

Do you not have suspicions that the Israeli government went soft on Hamas  in part because they had religious right partners in government  who may have felt sympathy to fellow fanatics "across the aisle"?

I mean ,if they had a part in encouraging Hamas at first did they feel safer/more comfortable with a religious opponent rather than a secular one?

If this intelligence failure is all cock up and no conniving at all then that will be irrelevant.

 

But I have a very low opinion of Netanyahu and am prepared to be shocked at his role (if any) in what happened

There are multiple articles including in Israeli press quoting Netanyahu and cabinet members that empowering Hamas is a strategy to weaken Fatah and any two state solutions. The assumption seemed to be that any violence from Hamas could be controlled.

In the quotes religion was not mentioned. E.g. https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

That  being said, the settler violence in the West Bank has made it really clear that the hardliners also wish to squeeze out the Palestinians. While not planned, they certainly do seem to take opportunity of it.