Hamas attacks Israel with kit rockets and AK47's... US sends aircraft carrier in support.

[J.C.MacSwell]

It of course gets complicated as I am sure there are some in Hamas that are in it to help administrate some aspects of decent governance, don't approve of the worst terrorist acts, but fail to see any means of change for the better beyond what they might achieve through working with Hamas.

...and of course many in the population might support them to some degree.

All more or less by design of the more powerful within Hamas.

So we are seeing the results of a general hate for Israel, and a willingness to support some aspects of Hamas and submit to others where no alternative is currently available.

You see Hamas hospital administrators that know damn well there are tunnels and possibly dens underneath them. Are they supporting and protecting Hamas terror? Or are they trying to run a hospital with what they can best manage to get from Hamas while not feeling they owe Israel the risk of speaking out?

[geordief]

4 hours ago, AIkonoklazt said:

Not sure if any group of people would "support" those who directly lords over them through a sort of "terror governance..."

https://theconversation.com/gaza-war-how-representative-is-hamas-of-ordinary-palestinians-218080

 

Clearly some support if not enough to  govern democratically. 

Ally that to fear of coercion and ostracization  then  they have  for now all the "support" they need.

These are the other polls I alluded to

https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/2023-11-22/ty-article/.premium/three-quarters-of-palestinians-support-hamas-attack-on-october-7-says-new-poll-why/0000018b-f841-d473-affb-f9e9eeef0000?v=1702035272031&lts=1702035306279

I expect many here will already be aware of them

 

[J.C.MacSwell]

Something has to be done to break through the hate, and clearly Israel leaving Hamas in charge with their current agenda in place isn't going to do it, and no one else but Israel are both capable and willing to remove them from power.

So two civilians in the way of a Hamas terrorist and they shoot to kill, 3 in the way they wait for a better shot. If they can't get a better one they eventually feel they have to take it. They've learned from a long history, including well before the Holocaust, that if they want to exist they have to rely on themselves.

It's far from being right but what are they to do? What can anyone on either side wanting peaceful coexistence do? Explain that while pointing fingers.

Not that fingers don't need pointed as well.

[TheVat]

When the birthrate soars to where the average age is 18, that's usually a strong indicator that women are extremely oppressed in a society - basically chattel for breeding.  And when you're at that point demographically then bad governance is perpetuated.  Throw in confinement to a small space and it's a recipe for Calhoun's behavioral sink.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_sink

Again, while acknowledging the horror that is Hamas, I do not absolve Israel of its role in the past century of oppression and displacement.  And creating that sink.  Apparently when one calls on Israel for moral accountability, everything one has said will be falsely framed by someone as sympathy for Hamas or anti-Semitism.  

[MigL]

Nice summary JC.
Everyone is quick to criticize Israel's actions, simply because they expect Israel to be 'reasonable' ( a requirement not made of Hamas ), .
But no alternative solution is offered.
They expect Israel to stop unilaterally, and just keep absorbing Hamas strikes against their population,

After victimization throghout the middle ages, the Holocaust, and the constant attacks by neighboring states, how long are Israel, and Jews in general, expected to 'turn the other cheek' ( a New Testament ideology not required of Jews ).

That being daid, I do not absolve Israel ( and Jews ) of expansionism and settler violence, but the only solution to the problem seems to be getting rid of all people who want to solve the problem with indiscriminate violence.
And, at the moment, Hamas is the worst offender, and first problem that needs resolving.

SAs for polls indicating Hamas support among Palestinians, keep in mind that V Putin won the last Russian election with 80 % of the vote.

 

Edited December 8, 2023 by MigL

[CharonY]

4 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Something has to be done to break through the hate, and clearly Israel leaving Hamas in charge with their current agenda in place isn't going to do it, and no one else but Israel are both capable and willing to remove them from power.

So two civilians in the way of a Hamas terrorist and they shoot to kill, 3 in the way they wait for a better shot. If they can't get a better one they eventually feel they have to take it. They've learned from a long history, including well before the Holocaust, that if they want to exist they have to rely on themselves.

It's far from being right but what are they to do? What can anyone on either side wanting peaceful coexistence do? Explain that while pointing fingers.

Not that fingers don't need pointed as well.

Well, ultimately what has to happen is that the voices of consensus builders are elevated. I.e. having the Likud and Hamas in power (and by now it has been extensively discussed how Netanyahu's anti-two state strategy has empowered Hamas) the cycle of violence is likely only to continue. The other aspect is the one of outcome. Sure killing folks now eliminates them as immediate risk, but with a longer view it is abundantly clear that this also creates a vast (international) recruitment ground for Hamas and their allies. I am not saying that doing nothing is a great strategy, but we also know that a violent outburst is not solving things easier (just take a look at the US wars in the Middle East). 

I think the Israeli policy of isolating the West Bank is also not to be underestimated as an issue, specifically the state-supported settler violence: https://www.npr.org/2023/11/14/1212836719/ex-idf-soldier-calls-for-international-intervention-to-stop-settler-violence

Quote

It wasn't long after Ori Givati became a combat soldier in the Israeli army in 2010 that he began to question his mission.

He spent much of his time not acting on specific security threats in the Israeli-occupied West Bank, but making sure "all of the Palestinians feel like they cannot lift their heads up," he told Morning Edition's Leila Fadel. [...]

I'm talking to you now probably in the most devastating time in my life as an Israeli, as an activist, as a person, human being seeing the atrocities of Oct. 7. You know, some of my family members were texting me from their basements that there are terrorists in their home. Luckily they survived, but that was the kind of text I received on Oct. 7. But at the end of the day, I think this is precisely what we have to remember when we talk about the concept of managing the conflict. The concept that we will maintain millions of people under our military occupation indefinitely—it failed.

We have been saying it failed because we know how it works as soldiers who were sent to maintain it, to extend it, to entrench it. It failed before Oct. 7, but now more than ever, we know it failed. That means we have to change course. Because at the end of the day it doesn't matter how many Palestinians we will kill in this war in Gaza, there will be Palestinians in Gaza. It doesn't matter how many Palestinians we kill or arrest or settlers expel from their homes in the West Bank, there will be Palestinians in the West Bank. So, the only viable future here is to change course, we don't want to see more bloodshed. Of course Israel has the right to defend itself after the atrocities of Hamas. It's not a contradiction.

In other word, the discussion cannot only be about the current violence, but also the paths leading to it. Again, a blame game about who is justified to what level of violence just reinforces bloodshed. The system that has been implemented supposedly to protect Israel, clearly have failed and there is little reason to assume that escalating the violence will improve situations. As many folks have stated, this is similar to the US lashing out after 9/11 and as expected, we fail to learn from past lessons.

[StringJunky]

5 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Something has to be done to break through the hate, and clearly Israel leaving Hamas in charge with their current agenda in place isn't going to do it, and no one else but Israel are both capable and willing to remove them from power.

Yeah, leave the fox in charge of the chicken hut...

[StringJunky]

2 hours ago, CharonY said:

Well, ultimately what has to happen is that the voices of consensus builders are elevated. I.e. having the Likud and Hamas in power (and by now it has been extensively discussed how Netanyahu's anti-two state strategy has empowered Hamas) the cycle of violence is likely only to continue. The other aspect is the one of outcome. Sure killing folks now eliminates them as immediate risk, but with a longer view it is abundantly clear that this also creates a vast (international) recruitment ground for Hamas and their allies.

Exactly my thoughts, seeing the sad faces of Palestinian children minus limbs. Perfect recruitment material.

[joigus]

On 11/29/2023 at 2:19 PM, mistermack said:

The only thing you can be sure of, is that Gaza is a modern day concentration camp, 25 miles by six approximately, with about 2.5 million people confined in misery. 

(My emphasis.)

Ok. I promised myself I wouldn't participate in this thread. Its centre of gravity is soooooo far removed from the real root of the problem that I just don't think there's any chance of setting it in the right direction.

But,

Modern-day concentration camp? Really?

Prisoners in Gaza (image from today 12-8):

Prisoners in actual concentration camp (Dachau):

The first photo doesn't look like people in misery to me, tbh. Concentration camp? An impressive concentration of beer bellies more like it. Some of these men should give up on compulsive eating and start watching their glucose/LDL cholesterol levels. Seriously. They should stop hogging all that food down in the tunnels, or their heart disease will catch up with them long before Israel's bombs do.

Having said that, peace to all.

 

[zapatos]

1 hour ago, joigus said:

(My emphasis.)

Ok. I promised myself I wouldn't participate in this thread. Its centre of gravity is soooooo far removed from the real root of the problem that I just don't think there's any chance of setting it in the right direction.

But,

Modern-day concentration camp? Really?

Prisoners in Gaza (image from today 12-8):

Prisoners in actual concentration camp (Dachau):

The first photo doesn't look like people in misery to me, tbh. Concentration camp? An impressive concentration of beer bellies more like it. Some of these men should give up on compulsive eating and start watching their glucose/LDL cholesterol levels. Seriously. They should stop hogging all that food down in the tunnels, or their heart disease will catch up with them long before Israel's bombs do.

Having said that, peace to all.

 

Concentration camps were not first created by the Nazis, and there is much more to a concentration camp than lack of food. You cannot just say "If it didn't look like what happened in Nazi Germany then it isn't a concentration camp."

Quote

A concentration camp is a place where a large number of inmates, often those deemed political enemies or members of ethnic and religious minorities, are confined against their will and under guard, usually without having been charged with a crime. Punitive conditions of internment usually result in a high rate of mortality.

...

Concentration camps have been used by governments and militaries on almost every continent over the last three centuries. In 1838, the U.S. Army rounded up members of the Cherokee tribes from the southeast U.S., forcing them into prison camps before relocating them to Oklahoma. Many Native Americans died in these so-called “emigration depots” due to the rapid spread of disease in poor sanitary conditions.

https://www.lbi.org/exhibitions/virtual-exhibition-last-stop-before-the-last-stop/concentration-camps-existed-long-before-hitler-came-to-power/

[J.C.MacSwell]

5 hours ago, StringJunky said:

Yeah, leave the fox in charge of the chicken hut...

Rare though, to see chickens swing open the doors and go fox hunting...

6 hours ago, CharonY said:

Well, ultimately what has to happen is that the voices of consensus builders are elevated. I.e. having the Likud and Hamas in power (and by now it has been extensively discussed how Netanyahu's anti-two state strategy has empowered Hamas) the cycle of violence is likely only to continue. The other aspect is the one of outcome. Sure killing folks now eliminates them as immediate risk, but with a longer view it is abundantly clear that this also creates a vast (international) recruitment ground for Hamas and their allies. I am not saying that doing nothing is a great strategy, but we also know that a violent outburst is not solving things easier (just take a look at the US wars in the Middle East). 

I think the Israeli policy of isolating the West Bank is also not to be underestimated as an issue, specifically the state-supported settler violence: https://www.npr.org/2023/11/14/1212836719/ex-idf-soldier-calls-for-international-intervention-to-stop-settler-violence

In other word, the discussion cannot only be about the current violence, but also the paths leading to it. Again, a blame game about who is justified to what level of violence just reinforces bloodshed. The system that has been implemented supposedly to protect Israel, clearly have failed and there is little reason to assume that escalating the violence will improve situations. As many folks have stated, this is similar to the US lashing out after 9/11 and as expected, we fail to learn from past lessons.

I can agree with much of that but where is the path to Peace? From now or even from October 7. I had faint hope that the Truce would continue and buy some time but how does Israel step back, whether now or from October 7.

 

Hamas didn't just declare war on them. They committed atrocities and went back and hid behind the civilians they claim to represent.

If Israel backs off Hamas remains in power. The UN wants Israel to stop the carnage, which is commendable to ask for, condemns Hamas's actions, also commendable, but has proposed that Israel must stop while offering to do nothing about Hamas...not a good look for the UN, even if it's not a good look for the US to have to veto such an impotent proposal.

Russia of course (probably the only winner in all this) was on board with the UN proposal...even though they've threatened use of Nuclear weapons for less than what Israel sustained on October 7.

[AIkonoklazt]

One thing is abundantly clear to me.

Neither side is fighting "for Palestinians."

4 hours ago, joigus said:

Modern-day concentration camp? Really?

 

Godwin's law.

[CharonY]

5 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Rare though, to see chickens swing open the doors and go fox hunting...

I can agree with much of that but where is the path to Peace? From now or even from October 7. I had faint hope that the Truce would continue and buy some time but how does Israel step back, whether now or from October 7.

 

Hamas didn't just declare war on them. They committed atrocities and went back and hid behind the civilians they claim to represent.

If Israel backs off Hamas remains in power. The UN wants Israel to stop the carnage, which is commendable to ask for, condemns Hamas's actions, also commendable, but has proposed that Israel must stop while offering to do nothing about Hamas...not a good look for the UN, even if it's not a good look for the US to have to veto such an impotent proposal.

Russia of course (probably the only winner in all this) was on board with the UN proposal...even though they've threatened use of Nuclear weapons for less than what Israel sustained on October 7.

There are difficult paths and none that are obvious. If the war has any chance of securing long lasting peace one might make the tenuous argument that the civilian deaths might have been worth it. Yet everything points to further escalation, so my question is now what purpose does it serve besides ringing the bell for the next round of deaths.

Ehud Barak has discussed the need for a path toward a two state solution, which includes opening lines with Palestinian Authority and showing that there is an alternative to Hamas. Instead, the settler violence I  the West Bannk tells folks that whatever you do, you are screwed. And at that point a blaze of glory might just sound right. And off we go to another round of bloodshed. Because we cannot think beyond an eye for an eye. Unfortunately we have been blind for some time now.

 

[LaurieAG]

 

43 minutes ago, CharonY said:

There are difficult paths and none that are obvious. If the war has any chance of securing long lasting peace one might make the tenuous argument that the civilian deaths might have been worth it. Yet everything points to further escalation, so my question is now what purpose does it serve besides ringing the bell for the next round of deaths.

With an average of 20 Palestinian deaths per Israeli death, before October 7, I suppose the reduction of this ratio and the cessation of hostilities in Gaza both depend on how right wing the politicians in Israel and the US are.

[joigus]

4 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Concentration camps were not first created by the Nazis, and there is much more to a concentration camp than lack of food. 

"More than lack of food" implies lack of food and other factors, which I don't think is what you mean. I think you mean something other than lack of food. Because it seems obvious to me that lack of food there was not, at least for the general population before the situation got to the dramatic point it has.

13 minutes ago, zapatos said:

You cannot just say "If it didn't look like what happened in Nazi Germany then it isn't a concentration camp."

And I didn't. But I admit was somewhat lazy with my criterion. So here's some analysis taking your definition as the starting point.

56 minutes ago, zapatos said:

A concentration camp is a place where a large number of inmates, often those deemed political enemies or members of ethnic and religious minorities, are confined against their will and under guard, usually without having been charged with a crime. Punitive conditions of internment usually result in a high rate of mortality.

This doesn't seem to be the case for Gaza/Israel. Unless you're willing to accept several million people of the same ethnic and/or religious minority have met a very different fate for absolutely no identifiable reason. Some of those people of exactly the same ethnic and religious group seem to have made their way to the Supreme Court, the Knesset or the IDF. They are Israeli citizens:

Quote

As of March 2023, Israel's population stands at approximately 9.73 million. Jews make up the majority at 73.5% (about 7.145 million individuals). The Arab community, spanning various religions excluding Judaism, accounts for 21% (around 2.048 million).

Quote

Islam is the second-largest religion in Israel, constituting 1.707 million and around 18.1% of the country's population as of 2022.

These data are from Israel only, not Gaza or the West Bank.

More:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arab_members_of_the_Knesset

For 20 years Gaza has been under the rule of Hamas. I'm not sure that Palestinians have been forcibly retained in Gaza for all that time. But I do get from testimonies that leaving is considerably difficult, and it must go through special permission, and ridiculously elaborate security measures, including digital cards and such.

Nevertheless, here's a screenshot from the World Bank data webpage corresponding to Gaza+West Bank

Which seems to imply that some people seem to have managed to trickle out, in spite of all those guards watching them from the turrets.

Let's see about life expectancy

Similar to Albania, considerably higher than Rwanda, about the same as Tunicia. All of those well-known concentration camps?

https://data.worldbank.org/country/west-bank-and-gaza

Population growth of only Gaza:

Population of Gaza in 2005: 1,299,000 people.

Population of Gaza in 2023: 2,300,000 people.

Although I can imagine that it must not have been easy for many of them to leave due to the economic conditions --and that in spite of the large amounts of money thrown at them that could have been invested otherwise, as @MigL has observed before. Moreover, it is apparent that no Arab countries are willing to take regugees from Gaza, or no Arabs from Gaza are willing to go to other Arab countries, or both. They seem to like to go to NY or London, for some reason.

Prisoners in their territory? Quite a number of them enjoyed work permits and crossed the border on a daily basis to work in the kibbutzim with their socialist benefactors. An opportunity to collect intelligence for the attacks that Hamas couldn't and didn't miss.

Quote

As at 7 October, an estimated 18,000-18,500 residents of the Gaza Strip held work permits issued by the Israeli authorities. These allowed them to work and live in Israel and Israeli settlements in the West Bank (ILO 27/10/2023; Gisha 24/10/2023; Reuters 03/11/2023).Nov 10, 2023

So no, Gazans were not under guard when the attacks of October 7th happened. Frankly I find it impossible to recognize any condition from the definition you presented that applies here.

What about the bit "those deemed political enemies" in your definition? Well, the logistics of the map of the West Bank doesn't look to me as the places where part of the population is divided according to what they think. It looks more like the logistics of urban guerrilla: Isolating places where the chances of getting shot from a window are more than so-and-so percent. And that's what they are. So there's nothing political about it.

But of course the main issue is not political, in spite of many people trying to make it political. It's mostly that thing that shall not be named. It's that thing that shall not be named what gives it the character of an unsolvable problem. If you misdiagnose an illness you guarantee that it will never get better.

If tomorrow all the Muslims of Palestine converted at once to, say, the Ahmadi Muslim faith --which are now a tiny, tiny minority there, the problem would be solved in a matter of months. Unfortunately, they are mostly Sunni followed by a minor amount of Shia, and the rest of the Muslims consider the Ahmadi heretics. So no, it won't work. And it never will.

It takes a religious component for a problem to become so vicious, so stagnant, so irredeemably impossible as this one. It will never get better. Not for as long as the religious component of it survives. I grew up seeing the buildings of Beirut smashed to smitherines on the TV, and I'm pretty sure I'll leave this world with a similar scenery from the Middle East. Only this time on YT.

Etc, etc.

The situation is a tragedy for everyone involved, and it breaks my heart seeing Palestinian kids used as cannon fodder by Hamas, but pretending that the State of Israel is some kind of Khmer Rouge of the Middle East is just ridiculous. And no, it's not going to solve the problem either. It's going to make it worse and worse.

This kind of hiperbolic discourse (like those morons saying "apartheid", "genocide", etc in the campuses) only weakens the arguments coming from any kind of progressive thinking. And if you ask me, they only make the Trumps and the Wilders and the far-right extremists more likely to seize power, not less. They're biding their time, make no mistake about it.

Sorry for the lengthy diatribe. I will probably shut up pretty soon. It's a pain to participate in these debates, because the fog of propaganda makes the main arguments almost invisible.

[J.C.MacSwell]

9 hours ago, LaurieAG said:

 

With an average of 20 Palestinian deaths per Israeli death, before October 7, I suppose the reduction of this ratio and the cessation of hostilities in Gaza both depend on how right wing the politicians in Israel and the US are.

If the reduction of that ratio is based on a smaller number of Jews that obviously would be better. If it is based on a larger number of Palestinians then obviously not.

Given that Israel controls a Holy Land shared by 100 times as many Muslims as Jews worldwide, and 200 times as many as live in Israel, it is fairly obvious that any seemingly reasonable ratio is not going to work for the continuing existence of Israel if it is to submit or reply "reasonably" to attacks. Clearly Hamas doesn't care enough about Palestinian lives.

Good post joigus. I will add what I alluded to earlier...if Gaza is a concentration camp with guarded borders (I do realize Zap didn't make that claim but others have made the comparison) Egypt is certainly maintaining its role in the confinement.

Edited December 9, 2023 by J.C.MacSwell

[TheVat]

I take @joigus point, that we don't need hyperbole to talk about the problems of Gaza.  A place with its unique blend of economic corsets, Malthusian crisis, failed governance, rotting infrastructure, doesn't need to be a concentration camp to be a place of blighted opportunities and overcrowding.  This wiki entry speaks to the troubles and abuse Palestinians have received when seeking free movement...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_freedom_of_movement

When a woman in labor is denied passage and has a miscarriage at a border checkpoint, such a story becomes a catalyst that amplifies anger and despair.  Israel has operated those checkpoints in a brutal manner that creates thousands of such stories over the years, feeding the hatred.

The population explosion aspect also points to the flawed logic of any political and/or religious faction that tries outbreeding its perceived enemy.  Both ultraconservative Jews and Muslims have factions that tried this, an insane tactic in a desert land with low biological carrying capacity and narrow borders.  

As @J.C.MacSwell and others note, Hamas doesn't care about Palestinians but rather about keeping its own ranks well-stocked with young and impressionable cannon fodder.  I can see no path to peace so long as all these toxic ideological forces continue to feed each other.

[zapatos]

3 hours ago, joigus said:

This doesn't seem to be the case for Gaza/Israel. Unless you're willing to accept several million people of the same ethnic and/or religious minority have met a very different fate for absolutely no identifiable reason.

The identifiable reason is that some Arabs are Israeli citizens. It doesn't keep them from being discriminated against in Israel but it means that they can no longer be kicked out of Israel. Of course none of them get back the land that was stolen from them.

3 hours ago, joigus said:

Which seems to imply that some people seem to have managed to trickle out, in spite of all those guards watching them from the turrets.

Correct. Some people manage to come and go. Again, you make it sound as if Gaza cannot be compare to a concentration camp if some people can leave, or if people aren't starving. 

Quote

41 per cent have too little food
4 out of 10 families struggle to acquire enough food. In Gaza, more than 830,000 Palestinians need assistance in the form of food or nutritional supplements.

https://www.nrc.no/news/2018/april/gaza-the-worlds-largest-open-air-prison/

 

3 hours ago, joigus said:

Prisoners in their territory? Quite a number of them enjoyed work permits and crossed the border on a daily basis to work in the kibbutzim with their socialist benefactors.

Similar to the way Jews worked outside the camps.

 

4 hours ago, joigus said:

So no, Gazans were not under guard when the attacks of October 7th happened.

Quote

Satellite images from Planet Labs also show the before-and-after view where the wall was blown up to get across at the checkpoint.

People break through the Gaza Israel border fence near Nir Oz.

Google Earth / Hamas Military Media Handout

The breach of this fence was widely circulated on social media in the immediate aftermath of the incursion because of the capture of a tank near the hole in the fence and videos show the tank burning as Hamas militants pull a dazed soldier out of it.

Later on, a bulldozer arrived and created an even bigger hole in the fence as dozens of people can be seen going in and out at will.

 

 

https://abcnews.go.com/International/detailed-hamas-secretly-crossed-israel/story?id=103917182

Quote

Israel controls the Gaza Strip's northern borders, as well as its territorial waters and airspace. Egypt controls Gaza Strip's southern border, under an agreement between it and Israel.^[87] Neither Israel or Egypt permits free travel from Gaza as both borders are heavily militarily fortified. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip#:~:text=Israel controls the Gaza Strip's,borders are heavily militarily fortified.

 

Like many others, you seem to have reached a conclusion first then found arguments to support it.

Whether or not Gaza precisely meets any given definition of a 'concentration camp', it seems clear to me that the people who make the comparison are not overreaching to any great extent.

[StringJunky]

If we increase the density of something, one is concentrating it; be it people or matter.

[AIkonoklazt]

I'm not exactly "pro-X" or "support X" but I kinda wonder what the heck else the world is supposed to do about all the people who are single-mindedly "working" towards rolling back the world to the age of Caliphates and eliminating anything and everything that could stand in the way?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliphate

[zapatos]

1 hour ago, AIkonoklazt said:

I'm not exactly "pro-X" or "support X" but I kinda wonder what the heck else the world is supposed to do about all the people who are single-mindedly "working" towards rolling back the world to the age of Caliphates and eliminating anything and everything that could stand in the way?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliphate

Well, we are supposed to oppose them if we aren't part of them of course.

It would be nice however if while doing so we showed why ours might be a better, more civilized way.

[StringJunky]

2 hours ago, AIkonoklazt said:

I'm not exactly "pro-X" or "support X" but I kinda wonder what the heck else the world is supposed to do about all the people who are single-mindedly "working" towards rolling back the world to the age of Caliphates and eliminating anything and everything that could stand in the way?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliphate

Translate: 'Otzma Yehudit', which Ben-Givr leads. It might has well be called the 'Fourth Reich'.

[AIkonoklazt]

21 hours ago, StringJunky said:

Translate: 'Otzma Yehudit', which Ben-Givr leads. It might has well be called the 'Fourth Reich'.

You mean he's anti-semitic?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/made-by-history/2022/12/13/its-important-take-those-calling-fourth-reich-seriously/

Quote

After World War II, however, the concept was reappropriated by unrepentant Nazis who hoped to recreate the authoritarian spirit of the Third Reich. Simultaneously, Western democracies used the concept of a Fourth Reich in admonitory fashion to warn against the possible postwar resurgence of Nazism. This history shows why it is critical to take those actors who seek to bring about a Fourth Reich seriously.

 

[CharonY]

1 hour ago, AIkonoklazt said:

You mean he's anti-semitic?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/made-by-history/2022/12/13/its-important-take-those-calling-fourth-reich-seriously/

 

Well, it has been described (by Jewish journalists and researchers) as Jewish supremacist and fascist group. That's two for two already.

[J.C.MacSwell]

I think it is easy to blame the Nazis for Naziism and similar level atrocities, but if we want to avoid becoming part of it it's important to recognize we are all born capable of the same.