Hamas attacks Israel with kit rockets and AK47's... US sends aircraft carrier in support.

[iNow]

5 minutes ago, AIkonoklazt said:

What is the solution to Hamas wanting Israel to disappear along with all of its people

I'm all ears

42

[zapatos]

1 hour ago, AIkonoklazt said:

What is the solution to Hamas wanting Israel to disappear along with all of its people

I'm all ears

As he said the problem is so intricate that people here cannot come up with good ideas for a solution.

[AIkonoklazt]

59 minutes ago, zapatos said:

As he said the problem is so intricate that people here cannot come up with good ideas for a solution.

Te me the problem is "simple," in that it's simply intractable.

One group of people (Hamas) just wants the other (people of Israel) gone. No compromise, no peace, no deal, nada.

[zapatos]

19 minutes ago, AIkonoklazt said:

Te me the problem is "simple," in that it's simply intractable.

One group of people (Hamas) just wants the other (people of Israel) gone. No compromise, no peace, no deal, nada.

That's a rather narrow view of the situation in the Middle East, as if all would be solved if only Hamas were not there. Hamas has only been around since 1987. It is not as if we had no issues prior to that. In addition, prior to October 7th Hamas only had the support of around 12% of Palestinians.

In addition, one group of people (Israeli government) just wants the other (Hamas) gone. No compromise, no peace, no deal, nada.

[StringJunky]

From the 2017 Hamas manifesto:

Quote

16. Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full

It seems from this Intercept article, some of our politicians seem to refer to the 1988 manifesto that called for elimination of Jews from Palestine.

Quote

DO THE PEOPLE who run the world know the most basic facts about the world? This urgent question is raised by a recent columnOpens in a new tab on the Israeli attack on Gaza by the British politician Ben Wallace, who, until a few months ago, was the United Kingdom’s defense minister. Terrifyingly enough, the answer appears to be no.

The problem is that Wallace places great significance on Hamas’s original 1988 charterOpens in a new tab, which is explicitly antisemitic and rejects any coexistence with Israel. But he doesn’t appear to know Hamas issued a new charterOpens in a new tab in 2017. In it, Hamas affirms that its “conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion.” And, while the revised charter rejects the legitimacy of Zionism, it accepts “the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus.” This reference to the lines of June 4, 1967 — before Israel captured the West Bank and the Gaza Strip in the Six-Day War — is regarded as accepting the existence of Israel within the borders it had at that time.

https://theintercept.com/2023/12/22/hamas-charter-revision-israel-gaza/

 

[dimreepr]

21 hours ago, zapatos said:

As I said, that only works if both sides agree. Israel can spend all they want on the Palestinians, but if the Palestinians want Israel to die and keep lobbing missile, it won't work. The part you seem to bypass whenever you suggest alternatives to violence is that BOTH SIDES have to agree to alternatives to violence.

Not at all, the bit I see as futile is:

 "Someone had blundered. Theirs not to make reply, Theirs not to reason why, Theirs but to do and die."

You and I have no Idea what it's like to be a Palestinian or Israeli, with the level of fear (both imagined and real) they live with (both today and yesterday) and we both can only guess at how that has warped their understanding of what a human bean is...

Not that I'm accusing you, but a good analog as to why peace/pacifism has a chance, is in the playground when kids start to fight, we rush up all excited shouting "fight, fight..." but when the big kid wins and doesn't stop the beating, the rest of the yard either turn round and walk away shouting "wanker" or pile in on the wanker. depending on how big he is.

BTW I think Isreal is 'now' being the bigger wanker; they seriously need a teacher to intervene...

Edited December 23, 2023 by dimreepr

[iNow]

9 hours ago, AIkonoklazt said:

Te me the problem is "simple," in that it's simply intractable.

That’s an assertion, an opinion at best, not “a solution” which is what you asked about. 

[npts2020]

12 hours ago, AIkonoklazt said:

What is the solution to Hamas wanting Israel to disappear along with all of its people

I'm all ears

Stated or not, that seems to me to have been the attitude on both sides for much longer than the past couple of months. It also seems to me that in a contest to see who can be the most inhumane, no side is deserving of support, especially in helping to facilitate that inhumanity. There may very well be no solution but if there is one, I think eliminating war profiteering as an ulterior motive could go a long way toward someday changing the attitudes enough to implement it.

[J.C.MacSwell]

The Israel Policy Forum is a American Jewish organization working for a a two state solution. This outlines the West Bank Settlements history including political motivations and their position on it. It's from this year though I think it predates Oct 7.

 

https://israelpolicyforum.org/west-bank-settlements-explained/#:~:text=By placing Israeli civilians in,of defense against an invasion.

[AIkonoklazt]

On 12/22/2023 at 8:55 PM, zapatos said:

That's a rather narrow view of the situation in the Middle East, as if all would be solved if only Hamas were not there. Hamas has only been around since 1987. It is not as if we had no issues prior to that. In addition, prior to October 7th Hamas only had the support of around 12% of Palestinians.

In addition, one group of people (Israeli government) just wants the other (Hamas) gone. No compromise, no peace, no deal, nada.

Pre October 7th, the "policy" of the Israeli government had been one of marginalization and containment. Of course, that turned out to be an utter failure. It only "worked" for a while, until it completely didn't.

On 12/23/2023 at 6:51 AM, npts2020 said:

Stated or not, that seems to me to have been the attitude on both sides for much longer than the past couple of months. It also seems to me that in a contest to see who can be the most inhumane, no side is deserving of support, especially in helping to facilitate that inhumanity. There may very well be no solution but if there is one, I think eliminating war profiteering as an ulterior motive could go a long way toward someday changing the attitudes enough to implement it.

Not really; see above

On 12/23/2023 at 6:26 AM, iNow said:

That’s an assertion, an opinion at best, not “a solution” which is what you asked about. 

Why should I ask someone else for a solution if I already had one, Your Brilliantness?

[dimreepr]

3 hours ago, AIkonoklazt said:

Why should I ask someone else for a solution if I already had one, Your Brilliantness?

When did you explain this genius solution, that no one could argue with?

[AIkonoklazt]

On 12/23/2023 at 7:45 AM, J.C.MacSwell said:

The Israel Policy Forum is a American Jewish organization working for a a two state solution. This outlines the West Bank Settlements history including political motivations and their position on it. It's from this year though I think it predates Oct 7.

 

https://israelpolicyforum.org/west-bank-settlements-explained/#:~:text=By placing Israeli civilians in,of defense against an invasion.

(Didn't know we can highlight page content in-line like that, neat... I also had to turn my VPN off to access that page, I don't blame them for VPN blocks)

Using civilians as a buffer. Filed under "what could possibly go wrong."

If I'm an Israeli, and one with nationalistic / religious leanings added on top, PLUS I want a "better life," I sure as heck wouldn't want to be a West Bank settler. 

[dimreepr]

14 hours ago, AIkonoklazt said:

(Didn't know we can highlight page content in-line like that, neat... I also had to turn my VPN off to access that page, I don't blame them for VPN blocks)

Using civilians as a buffer. Filed under "what could possibly go wrong."

If I'm an Israeli, and one with nationalistic / religious leanings added on top, PLUS I want a "better life," I sure as heck wouldn't want to be a West Bank settler. 

So, your solution is to run away?

If only refugee's could think that clearly...

[StringJunky]

On 12/26/2023 at 12:12 PM, dimreepr said:

So, your solution is to run away?

If only refugee's could think that clearly...

Some people don't have rubber spines, besides martyrdom is a laudable thing there.

UK/US are starting to make the Houthis look good, who are sticking up for allies. I smell a propaganda disaster just around the corner for us.

Is there substance to this comment by a Rep?:

Quote

These airstrikes have NOT been authorized by Congress. The Constitution is clear: Congress has the sole authority to authorize military involvement in overseas conflicts. Every president must first come to Congress and ask for military authorization, regardless of party. https://t.co/Yo4QOWfbgrOpens in a new tab

— Val Hoyle (@RepValHoyle) January 11, 2024

 

Edited January 12 by StringJunky

[dimreepr]

7 hours ago, StringJunky said:

Some people don't have rubber spines, besides martyrdom is a laudable thing there.

My point was more about the ability to run away, not the bravery of those with no choice; we'd all chose to run away from cancer if we could, no one is shouting coward, at them.

The thing we've got remember in all of this is, both sides are people and most people don't want to kill people unless they're persuaded that they have no option. Both sides in this case think (for whatever reason) they have been backed into a corner.

7 hours ago, StringJunky said:

UK/US are starting to make the Houthis look good, who are sticking up for allies. I smell a propaganda disaster just around the corner for us.

Any one who thinks that force is a way to make friends and influence people, is one step away from that corner.

[iNow]

8 hours ago, StringJunky said:

Is there substance to this comment by a Rep?

No. US President is Commander in Chief of the armed forces and has implicit authority to strike, defend, and respond to attacks without express declaration of war from Congress. 

More broadly, perhaps that needs to change (see also: Iraq and Afghanistan), but Biden doesn't need to check with the right-wing MAGA extremists in Congress before tossing a missile toward those attacking us and our allies. 

[StringJunky]

9 hours ago, iNow said:

No. US President is Commander in Chief of the armed forces and has implicit authority to strike, defend, and respond to attacks without express declaration of war from Congress. 

More broadly, perhaps that needs to change (see also: Iraq and Afghanistan), but Biden doesn't need to check with the right-wing MAGA extremists in Congress before tossing a missile toward those attacking us and our allies. 

OK.

[StringJunky]

Is considered an extremist. His telling of the history and when it started going awry was in the 1890's, which I independently assessed myself.

 

Edited January 14 by StringJunky

[dimreepr]

1 hour ago, StringJunky said:

Is considered an extremist. His telling of the history and when it started going awry was in the 1890's, which I independently assessed myself.

 

The thing about extremists is, they don't always tell the truth; which, it turns out, is more common than you think...

[StringJunky]

2 hours ago, dimreepr said:

The thing about extremists is, they don't always tell the truth; which, it turns out, is more common than you think...

The irony is that I'm perfectly aligned with Rabbi Weiss. As he says, one shouldn't conflate Judaism with Zionism. Zionism is only hundred-odd years old. Weiss is internally consistent relative to the official Israeli BS we are fed and legally bound not to oppose. Terrorism and extremism labels are being directed at the wrong groups.

Edited January 14 by StringJunky

[dimreepr]

18 hours ago, StringJunky said:

The irony is that I'm perfectly aligned with Rabbi Weiss. As he says, one shouldn't conflate Judaism with Zionism.

When did I say you should?

18 hours ago, StringJunky said:

Terrorism and extremism labels are being directed at the wrong groups.

That very much depends on what side of the cutlery your looking...

My point is, anyone who thinks they have no choice, for whatever reason, is an extremist in a conflict; look at South Africa, it's anagolous, it took a certain amount of forgiveness to avoid a bloodbath.

Edited January 15 by dimreepr

[StringJunky]

If the US puts boots in Gaza, I feel another Vietnam on the horizon.

[dimreepr]

5 hours ago, StringJunky said:

If the US puts boots in Gaza, I feel another Vietnam on the horizon.

That may be true, but if I was a Palestinian I'd choose the rock, bc the hardplace just sucks...

[StringJunky]

2 hours ago, dimreepr said:

That may be true, but if I was a Palestinian I'd choose the rock, bc the hardplace just sucks...

You routinely make such statements with no context or explanation. Do you get a kick out of being purposely vague? This is my thread. Please stop. Telepathy is not one of my talents.

On topic: I think the true long term intent of the present administration is clear in the Defence Minister's statement in answer to the US's statement admonishing the settler's current exploitative tactics in the West Bank:

Quote

"The 'settler violence' campaign is an antisemitic lie that enemies of Israel disseminate with the goal of smearing the pioneering settlers and settlement enterprise, and to harm them and thus smear the entire State of Israel," Smotrich said. "

https://www.reuters.com/world/biden-issue-order-targeting-jewish-settler-violence-wbank-politico-2024-02-01/

 

Edited February 1 by StringJunky

[geordief]

2 hours ago, StringJunky said:

You routinely make such statements with no context or explanation. Do you get a kick out of being purposely vague? This is my thread. Please stop. Telepathy is not one of my talents.

On topic: I think the true long term intent of the present administration is clear in the Defence Minister's statement in answer to the US's statement admonishing the settler's current exploitative tactics in the West Bank:

 

This Smotrich guy?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/12/31/israeli-minister-reiterates-calls-for-palestinians-to-leave-gaza

Not the Defence Minister-the Finance Minister and excluded from the War Cabinet  from my cursory knowledge.