Hamas attacks Israel with kit rockets and AK47's... US sends aircraft carrier in support.

[StringJunky]

18 hours ago, TheVat said:

One of the more sad and horrible war stories I've heard, and that's saying something.  It's the kind of story that sends me back to my core opinion on human aggression: you cannot trust humans with anything more lethal than a stick.  

It smells of a de facto, if not explicit, shoot-to-kill policy.

Edited December 17, 2023 by StringJunky

[J.C.MacSwell]

19 hours ago, TheVat said:

 It's the kind of story that sends me back to my core opinion on human aggression: you cannot trust humans with anything more lethal than a stick.  

This brings to mind the agreement between India and China not to use firearms within a couple kilometres of the Line of Actual Control in the area of disputed border between the two countries. Unfortunately at times casualties including fatalities sometimes occur when fighting erupts but at least those casualties are considerably lessened along with reduced tendencies for escalation than otherwise would be likely.

 

"According to the agreement, they can’t use firearms, but that doesn’t mean they can’t have fistfights or fights with swords, axes, clubs, and more. Although shots have been fired, when this has occurred, both sides have immediately denied it as neither wants to be in violation of the agreement."

https://www.sandboxx.us/news/these-are-the-unique-weapons-used-in-the-border-clashes-between-china-and-india/#:~:text=While the soldiers had rifles,batons%2C stones%2C and others.

[MigL]

2 hours ago, StringJunky said:

It smells of a de facto, if not explicit, shoot-to-kill policy.

On the contrary, it means that in war , mistakes and accidents do happen.
The 'fog' and all that ...

But, if you don't have an open mind, and have already convinced yourself of someone's guilt, it is easy to assume the worst about them.

[iNow]

9 minutes ago, MigL said:

in war , mistakes and accidents do happen.
The 'fog' and all that ...

Which is why we must focus so fiercely on avoiding them and ending them when for whatever reason we cannot 

[dimreepr]

21 minutes ago, MigL said:

But, if you don't have an open mind, and have already convinced yourself of someone's guilt, it is easy to assume the worst about them.

Indeed, it becomes a cascade of guilt, with very little open for debate about justice.

[StringJunky]

Enemy of peace  No.1:

Quote

Mr Netanyahu said on Saturday that he was “proud to have prevented the establishment of a Palestinian state” during his more than 16 years in power going back to the late 1990s.

https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/national/23995130.israel-presses-ahead-gaza-captive-killings-add-concern-conduct/

 

[CharonY]

On 12/15/2023 at 11:45 AM, J.C.MacSwell said:

That's a good post explaining your position but a far cry from supporting any characterization of anything anywhere in this thread suggesting "Palestinians have screwed up and now everyone there deserves to be bombed?"

So what purpose then does blaming Palestinians for their own situation serve in this particular context? Does it not mean that because Israel is justified in their actions and Palestinian carry (whatever level of) guilt, their deaths are, if not acceptable, then at least justified? 

Now, MigL has amended that his post were mostly meant as a pushback for some of the earlier posts, but I do think that the (repeated) claims of making use of their beaches and oil are at the minimum misleading and worst case an attempt to highlight Palestinian culpability.

And at in the context of large scale military actions with a tremendous death count among non-combatants and children, and an ongoing humanitarian crisis with risks of disease outbreaks, it is hard not to read it a as a justification.

That being said, the big issue is basically what another poster mentioned before: no one in this conflict is really on the side of the Palestinians. Certainly not Hamas, and the other Arab nations are clearly more motivated to use them as bargaining chips. Israel has also shown little interest in cultivating allies among Palestinians and hardliners have done their most to destroy chancers for a two-state solution.

So what remains is bickering about how many civilian deaths we are comfortable with. With increasing brutality of Hamas the number goes up. Really, I do not understand the strange dichotomic view of some of the posts suggesting that if Israel is not extra-brutal now, genocide is their only option left. Israeli politics have closed as many peaceful solutions as they can and as many (also Jewish) analysts have mentioned, these cycles of violence are a consequence of it. I read somewhere that Palestinians and Israelis are at a point where they are unable to recognize each other's pain.  

[MigL]

6 hours ago, CharonY said:

Does it not mean that because Israel is justified in their actions and Palestinian carry (whatever level of) guilt, their deaths are, if not acceptable, then at least justified? 

HaHa !

I guess if you  have already convinced yourself of my guilt, it is easy to assume the worst about me.
( oops ! last time I said similar I got neg repped )

I have said many times there are plenty of guilty parties on both sides.
But people, Israeli  or Palestinian, are only responsible for the choices they, themselves make, not what others choose to do.
And you have agreed with that.

Yet some of us are clearly putting blame on one side only ...

7 hours ago, StringJunky said:

Enemy of peace  No.1:

Yet I don't see you pushing back on String Junky assigning no blame whatsoever on some Palestinians who happen to be members of Hamas.
He seems a little confused, as he  thinks B Netanyahu is a member of Hamas.
Maybe you should set him straight, or are you too busy chastising me for trying to provide a balanced view, and that the situation has gotten out of hand precisely because both sides refuse to  take responsibility for their actions.

[zapatos]

10 minutes ago, MigL said:

Yet some of us are clearly putting blame on one side only ...

Who amongst us is putting blame on one side only? Please give us a name so that person can respond.

[MigL]

3 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Please give us a name so that person can respond.

I'm the one with the bad eyesight.
Surely you must have seen the quote I included below my 'accusation'.

 

[AIkonoklazt]

I'm not going to focus on what others said, but I am going to talk about the term "justification."

Namely, as far as the Israeli authorities are concerned (and no doubt a good portion of the Israeli residents as well) justification isn't in the picture in the face of survival.

I don't think the mission is to punish or administer justice; It is to eliminate Hamas.

[iNow]

You can’t kill hatred by killing the people who hate you, especially if you don’t simultaneously kill every single one of their children, family, friends, and sympathetic onlookers. 

[zapatos]

1 hour ago, AIkonoklazt said:

Namely, as far as the Israeli authorities are concerned (and no doubt a good portion of the Israeli residents as well) justification isn't in the picture in the face of survival.

 

Can you please expand on this? I'm not sure that Israelis feels Hamas has the ability to put the survival of the state of Israel at risk. Or why Israelis wouldn't feel they are fully justified to respond to such a brutal attack.

[CharonY]

3 hours ago, MigL said:

HaHa !

I guess if you  have already convinced yourself of my guilt, it is easy to assume the worst about me.
( oops ! last time I said similar I got neg repped )

I have said many times there are plenty of guilty parties on both sides.
But people, Israeli  or Palestinian, are only responsible for the choices they, themselves make, not what others choose to do.
And you have agreed with that.

Yet some of us are clearly putting blame on one side only ...

Yet I don't see you pushing back on String Junky assigning no blame whatsoever on some Palestinians who happen to be members of Hamas.
He seems a little confused, as he  thinks B Netanyahu is a member of Hamas.
Maybe you should set him straight, or are you too busy chastising me for trying to provide a balanced view, and that the situation has gotten out of hand precisely because both sides refuse to  take responsibility for their actions.

I think blaming Netanyahu is justified, just read through some international Israeli articles on that matter. He torpedoed paths to peace (regardless how strenuous they might have been ) and allowed money to flow to Hamas with the stated intention to weaken proponents of a two state solution. So at least factually there is some culpability, if folk co-developed a situation where terorists can thrive.

So it does not seem one-sided, as I don't think anyone here is justifying Hamas. One could argue whether ge should be No1 or 2 or wherever, but faultless he and hardliners are not. The one-sided argument seems to me that it is all the Palestinians fault, without formulating what their alternatives were (beside thriving through blockades). If someone blamed all the Israeli as you did with Palestinians, you might have point, but I might have missed those, if they existed.

And if you really want to narrow culpability to the direct actions only, then non combatant Palestinians should be equally excluded. Yet those are still dying.

Finally, you seem to attribute intentions to posters. I am critiquing your arguments and extrapolated to what seemed to me the conclusions. I have made no assignment of guilt to posters, as that would be silly. Unless Netanyahu posted here or followers of Hamas.

Palestinians and Israeli civilians are victims and it is hard for either group to take up responsibility either way. Both are not dying at the same rate historically, though.

2 hours ago, iNow said:

You can’t kill hatred by killing the people who hate you, especially if you don’t simultaneously kill every single one of their children, family, friends, and sympathetic onlookers. 

That is the issue with these actions and the seeming conclusion if executed unchecked. The US wars were a lesson I  that regard.

[StringJunky]

@MigL We have been talking about this for a long time. On Saturday, he has admitted, all the efforts towards a two-state solution were for nought.... and he's 'proud' to have held it back. It's there in black and white. Here's the pertinent part:

https://news.sky.com/video/israel-hamas-war-benjamin-netanyahu-on-blocking-palestinian-state-13032522

[MigL]

5 hours ago, StringJunky said:

all the efforts towards a two-state solution were for nought.... and he's 'proud' to have held it back.

You're absolutely right.
Of course that justifies breaking through a border, brutally killing 1400 people, and kidnapping several hundred more.

 

6 hours ago, CharonY said:

I am critiquing your arguments and extrapolated to what seemed to me the conclusions

See CharonY, I can extrapolate too.

[iNow]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

See CharonY, I can extrapolate too.

You’ve been offered this feedback many times before, but this tone and approach needlessly tangles and derails already hard complex conversations. Not always, but often when you comment it is bitingly personal, regularly besmirching of the character and intentions of fellow forum members, and consistently needling toward them with an undercurrent of bile. 

I know I’ve felt it toward you, and readily acknowledge that I’m hardly some angel here leading by example, but please maybe… in the holiday spirit… try focusing on the argument instead of the personal making it.

More than anything the existing approach is unproductive and amplifies animus, but more broadly it makes it more difficult to nourish allyship and come together on what are your otherwise extremely well informed and consistently valid points. It makes it harder to agree with you among those who want to.

tl;dr? Be more ambassador than curmudgeon, old man. The attacks cascading across the world need not so easily find refuge among what I hope are your friends here at SFN. ✌🏼

Edited December 18, 2023 by iNow

[StringJunky]

At the end of the day we are testing thoughts out and, hopefully, using the responses to refine those thoughts. Sometimes it can feel like people are ganging up when the opposing numbers are significantly asymmetric, but we are all actually individuals with our own views... as has been demonstrated many times between each of us. Conversational frenemies.  

Edited December 18, 2023 by StringJunky

[CharonY]

2 hours ago, MigL said:

You're absolutely right.
Of course that justifies breaking through a border, brutally killing 1400 people, and kidnapping several hundred more.

 

See CharonY, I can extrapolate too.

Except, if you remember, my premise that any policy resulting in innocent deaths (esp children) is a bad one. I.e. it was specifically a critique to the cycle of violence and their use  to justify the next one.

[MigL]

You're right INow.
As a favor to you, Iand in the spirit of the season, I will drop this, and show some good will towards other members.

I just want my opinions to be treated the same as others, without the 'except'.
We were discussing how my opinions were seen as justification for killing, yet others' were not, I guess because CharonY thinks there were no innocent children killed on Oct 7th.

Merry Christmas.
Will be back next week.

[zapatos]

26 minutes ago, MigL said:

I guess because CharonY thinks there were no innocent children killed on Oct 7th.

You know that is not true so why do you say it? What do you hope to gain?

[CharonY]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

I just want my opinions to be treated the same as others, without the 'except'.
We were discussing how my opinions were seen as justification for killing, yet others' were not, I guess because CharonY thinks there were no innocent children killed on Oct 7th.

And the discussion started that there were no good guys in the conflict (except the innocent civilians). I have no idea how the arguments made in this thread could be interpreted this way. Moreover, with one possible exception no one even tried to justify Hamas' action, so I am not sure why you try to argue that point.  I see a distinct mismatch in what you are arguing against and what has been written in this thread.

 

[iNow]

3 hours ago, MigL said:

Merry Christmas.
Will be back next week.

My request wasn’t for you to leave, but happiest and healthiest of holidays all the same to you and those you love. 

[J.C.MacSwell]

On 12/17/2023 at 4:34 PM, CharonY said:

So what purpose then does blaming Palestinians for their own situation serve in this particular context? 

To assert the blame more clearly on Hamas (they are Palestinians...but read below)than is typical in this thread, including the comparison of Gaza to a concentration camp, despite that Israel alone doesn't control the perimeter, and inside Hamas has been diverting resources toward the destruction of Israel  that were intended for, or could be utilized to help, other Gazans lead a more normal life. 

Not that Israeli leadership is not responsible for some aggravating of a bad situation in Gaza or on the West Bank.

On 12/17/2023 at 4:34 PM, CharonY said:

 Does it not mean that because Israel is justified in their actions and Palestinian carry (whatever level of) guilt, their deaths are, if not acceptable, then at least justified? 

Unfortunately yes. Israel is justified in some of their actions even when innocent deaths occur. Hamas started the current war. If just you and I were hostages of the Hamas leadership, and Israel had a chance to take us all out, our deaths would be justified. If it was you and I, plus the rest of the members on this Forum, perhaps not. (I don't know where they draw the line)

I'm on record alluding to the fact that I don't believe everyone in Hamas is evil, never mind other Palestinians, but unfortunately wars are never fair to the innocent. In this war instigated by Hamas, Israel is obligated to protect their citizens and, by the rules of war, try to limit Palestinian civilian casualties. How well they are doing in those regards is certainly open to debate but they are certainly not acting like everyone in Gaza deserves to be bombed. They are putting boots on the ground and putting their soldiers at greater risk than if they simply did that...small comfort as it may be to the Gazan civilians in harms way due to Hamas's war.

So I hope for a ceasefire, even if I don't believe one should be demanded of Israel. Israel should be very wary though of breaking any of the rules of war...and also very wary of the long term results of any actions they take.

8 hours ago, CharonY said:

Except, if you remember, my premise that any policy resulting in innocent deaths (esp children) is a bad one. 

Does a late term fetus and their civilian mother both count?

Edited December 18, 2023 by J.C.MacSwell

[zapatos]

3 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

To assert the blame more clearly on Hamas (they are Palestinians...but read below)than is typical in this thread,

I suspect the reason that blame keeps getting heaped on Israel more than Hamas is because Hamas is no longer rampaging through Israel, but Israel is still rampaging through Gaza. Every time someone kills a child they invite criticism. In the beginning of this most recent mess Hamas received the lion's share of rebuke. Now that Israel is on the offensive it is they who receive the lion's share of the rebuke. I personally don't find that surprising at all.

Once the fighting dies down I suspect there will be a more even-keeled evaluation of who is to blame for what.