Hamas attacks Israel with kit rockets and AK47's... US sends aircraft carrier in support.

[zapatos]

31 minutes ago, mistermack said:

Do you have any idea of how politics works? Do you think it's all done by public pronouncements? You seem to have a very simplistic view of the world. Israel knows how far it can go. It's all done behind the scenes.

Can you answer my questions please? And if you can do so without belittling my knowledge I'd appreciate it.

33 minutes ago, mistermack said:

Absolutely morally superior. They are fighting for the freedom of their people. They are freedom fighters. Israel is fighting to keep what's been stolen. If you suffer a house invasion, you have the right to fight. So do they. 

So if one are fighting for the freedom of their people, then the targeted killing of women, children and civilians is not immoral? Or is it just a little bit immoral?

[mistermack]

22 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Can you answer my questions please? And if you can do so without belittling my knowledge I'd appreciate it.

No, your question includes inherent false assumptions, and your understanding of how the world operates appears to be badly lacking. 

23 minutes ago, zapatos said:

So if one are fighting for the freedom of their people, then the targeted killing of women, children and civilians is not immoral? Or is it just a little bit immoral?

Maybe you've heard of WW2 ? Harry S Truman ordered that about 200,000 mostly civilians, women and children included, should be blasted or horribly burnt to death. With the consent of Winston Churchill. You can still find their statues all over the place. It doesn't say immoral on the plinth. 

[StringJunky]

8 minutes ago, mistermack said:

No, your question includes inherent false assumptions, and your understanding of how the world operates appears to be badly lacking. 

Maybe you've heard of WW2 ? Harry S Truman ordered that about 200,000 mostly civilians, women and children included, should be blasted or horribly burnt to death. With the consent of Winston Churchill. You can still find their statues all over the place. It doesn't say immoral on the plinth. 

Victors write the history books and point the moral compass in their own favour.

[zapatos]

18 minutes ago, mistermack said:

No, your question includes inherent false assumptions, and your understanding of how the world operates appears to be badly lacking. 

Maybe you've heard of WW2 ? Harry S Truman ordered that about 200,000 mostly civilians, women and children included, should be blasted or horribly burnt to death. With the consent of Winston Churchill. You can still find their statues all over the place. It doesn't say immoral on the plinth. 

Quit trolling. It's unbecoming.

[TheVat]

Middle East political threads always seem to devolve into spitting and growling.  Which oddly mirrors the ME itself.  I think it's a fool's errand trying to find some kind of original sin in the region that will somehow decisively determine who gets to be the good guys and bad guys.  We can regress through Ben Gurion, Balfour, the Mamluk sultans, the Mongols, the Crusades, and on and on and never find it.

 

[CharonY]

50 minutes ago, TheVat said:

I think it's a fool's errand trying to find some kind of original sin in the region that will somehow decisively determine who gets to be the good guys and bad guys. 

I think that this runs counter to finding actual solutions. And it seems that the folks that want to resolve it are getting perpetually drowned out.

[Sensei]

This is how mass murderer killing children look like:

@Anonymous

Edited November 8, 2023 by Sensei

[dimreepr]

13 hours ago, mistermack said:

Absolutely morally superior. They are fighting for the freedom of their people. They are freedom fighters. Israel is fighting to keep what's been stolen. If you suffer a house invasion, you have the right to fight. So do they. 

Absolute bollox, their stated aim is little more than genocide; like I said in my first post, if they really want freedom they'd be far more effective if they organised a mass fence cutting protest with all participants carrying backpack's full of present's addressed to the people across the wire.

14 hours ago, mistermack said:

If you suffer a house invasion, you have the right to fight. So do they.

What you don't have, is the right to kill them and all their family.

All this noise, is what they think of as an excuse to ignore the reason for a fight...

[CharonY]

In an interview with Hamas leadership, it was re-affirmed that the violence and deaths are the goal to reignite broader violence for the Palestinian cause

Quote

Thousands have been killed in Gaza, with entire families wiped out. Israeli airstrikes have reduced Palestinian neighborhoods to expanses of rubble, while doctors treat screaming children in darkened hospitals with no anesthesia. Across the Middle East, fear has spread over the possible outbreak of a broader regional war.

But in the bloody arithmetic of Hamas’s leaders, the carnage is not the regrettable outcome of a big miscalculation. Quite the opposite, they say: It is the necessary cost of a great accomplishment — the shattering of the status quo and the opening of a new, more volatile chapter in their fight against Israel.

It was necessary to “change the entire equation and not just have a clash,” Khalil al-Hayya, a member of Hamas’s top leadership body, told The New York Times in Doha, Qatar. “We succeeded in putting the Palestinian issue back on the table, and now no one in the region is experiencing calm.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/08/world/middleeast/hamas-israel-gaza-war.html?smid=url-share

What kind of disqualifies them as freedom fighters is the fact that they are a) killing non-combatants and b) sacrificing their own people to elevate their cause.

[Sensei]

9 hours ago, CharonY said:

In an interview with Hamas leadership, it was re-affirmed that the violence and deaths are the goal to reignite broader violence for the Palestinian cause

....which makes no sense actually..

 

 

[mistermack]

28 minutes ago, CharonY said:

What kind of disqualifies them as freedom fighters is the fact that they are a) killing non-combatants and b) sacrificing their own people to elevate their cause.

Just as our parents did fighting Hitler. But nobody doubts that they were fighting for world freedom. 

If a few hundred Jews broke out of Auschwitz and went on the rampage, killing Nazis, they would get plenty of understanding now. Gaza IS a concentration camp. Those people are living a lifelong torture. It's hardly surprising they produce some angry young men. 

But that's exactly what Israel wants. They LIKE being portrayed as victims, it gives them a free hand to pursue the final solution to the Palestinian Problem. 

2 hours ago, dimreepr said:

if they really want freedom they'd be far more effective if they organised a mass fence cutting protest

You seem remarkably out of touch with the real world. Protests has been met with Israelis using them for target practice at long range. Including school children. 

[zapatos]

20 minutes ago, mistermack said:

If a few hundred Jews broke out of Auschwitz and went on the rampage, killing Nazis, they would get plenty of understanding now.

Sure they would. But not if they broke out of Auschwitz and went on the rampage, killing women and children.

[CharonY]

15 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Sure they would. But not if they broke out of Auschwitz and went on the rampage, killing women and children.

Specifically targeting vulnerable folks, even. I think that there is an assumption that a prior atrocity is a legitimate justification for any forms of atrocities that follow, which seems like an attempt of moral justification. This is also an excuse made by authoritarian and violent regimes in order to justify their action and wash themselves off any moral responsibility. I will note that the Nazis used self-defense as an excuse to exterminate Jews.

Now in the case of the Palestinians the current situation is clearly untenable and the situation in the West Bank especially in recent times has clearly shown the attempt of Netanyahu's government to further marginalize them. While there are clashes with casualties on both sides, there is little doubt who holds the bigger cudgel and Palestinian children have died due to settler violence. This all pales now to the situation in Gaza, but taking a bold stance with endorsing unlimited violence against no-combatants is not the right way.

[mistermack]

This is so pathetic. Air strikes are ok. Killing women and children at long range is ignored. Israel has been striking Gaza, killing women and children on a weekly, sometimes daily basis. Not a peep from you lot. Now they're killing ten times the number that they lost, and a hell of a lot more children. Is that the rule, killing on foot is somehow worse? 

The truth is that it's racist. Israelis can kill as many as they like, week in week out, and all they have to do is claim they aimed at Hamas. Arabs kill a Jew, and it's an atrocity. It's racist double standards. 

[CharonY]

16 minutes ago, mistermack said:

This is so pathetic. Air strikes are ok. Killing women and children at long range is ignored.

It clearly isn't. You will note that folks here are for the most part saying that the response even to that massacre perpetuated by Hamas is not justified. The deaths and violence in the West Bank has been mentioned a few times. What folks object to is taking sides in a situation with no moral high ground. This is not the same as endorsing any of the violent actions. The contrary, actually.

19 hours ago, CharonY said:

I hope we can at least collectively agree that anything resulting in the deaths of children and innocents is not desirable.

 

[zapatos]

1 hour ago, mistermack said:

Israel has been striking Gaza, killing women and children on a weekly, sometimes daily basis. Not a peep from you lot.

Bullshit.

Only you and perhaps one other are suggesting their side is justified in killing innocents. The rest of us are condemning the atrocities on both sides.

Edited November 8, 2023 by zapatos

[MigL]

21 hours ago, iNow said:

I don’t know why you keep making it tense with me. If I’ve offended you, I’m sorry. 

Sorry if I gave that impression.
You haven't offended me .
( not since the summer )

Glad to see this thread is finally taking a more even handed approach and Mistermack is showing his true colors.

Palestinians wanted their own state, so Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005 leaving the PA as government; with a border ( fence ) separating the two states.
Gaza could have built resorts along its beautiful beaches, drilled for off-shore gas, and have a thriving economy. They didn't even try.
Instead they rejected the PA and 'elected' Hamas.
A government that hasn't had any elections since, stockpiles food and medicine for its fighters, and builds its hideouts under schools and hospitals. Never mind the people.
Some 'government' !

I remember the absurdity of D Trump saying "There are good people on both sides", well, in this case the opposite is certainly true.
Palestinians elect Hamas, and Israelis elect Netanyahu and his kind.
"There are bad people on both sides"

[CharonY]

8 hours ago, MigL said:

Palestinians wanted their own state, so Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005 leaving the PA as government; with a border ( fence ) separating the two states.
Gaza could have built resorts along its beautiful beaches, drilled for off-shore gas, and have a thriving economy. They didn't even try.
Instead they rejected the PA and 'elected' Hamas.
A government that hasn't had any elections since, stockpiles food and medicine for its fighters, and builds its hideouts under schools and hospitals. Never mind the people.
Some 'government' !

That seems like a very slanted reading of the situation. For starters, Hamas ended up with more seats due to the electoral system, but overall they barely had more votes compared to Fatah. As we all know, Hamas then later on seized power and murdered their opposition. Inquisitive might then ask the question why folks elected Hamas instead of building those beautiful beaches. 

Well, for starters many Palestinians viewed the Fatah as corrupt, anti-Western sentiments were high due to their support for Israel, the occupation of the West Bank continued. Hamas stoked these sentiments, they cast themselves as the principled faction (make Palestine great again) that are not subservice to Israeli dominance. A general sentiment was that Fatah was toothless and Israel would be unwilling to negotiate with them anyway (and Hamas fostered that sentiment by conducting suicide bombings which turned Israel away from negotiations). In a way it is ironic that the Bush administration and Hamas were pushing for elections, whereas the Fatah and Israel lobbied against due to the rising influence of Hamas. Some articles around that time have indicated that especially the younger section of Gazans were not that politically motivated, but they were driven by disillusion. Probably similar sentiments that resulted in Brexit. Things obviously changed once Hamas started their brutal takeover and resulting isolation.

Now switching to the West Bank we do see some economic benefits and a rise of a middle-class, supported by NGOs. Yet unemployment started to rise since 2000 and remain high, and they are under the continuous whim of Israeli settlement policies. Gaza then is used as a whip to keep them in line. At several points including in 2014, Hamas was severely weakened, but Netanyahu and the Israeli right-wing faction essentially cast them lifelines to keep the West Bank in check. Under these circumstances it is hard not to understand why the Palestinians think that Israel has too much influence over their lives.

 

 

[StringJunky]

A topical comment someone made:

If they’re black it’s a gang.

If they’re Italian its a mob.

If they’re Jewish it’s just a coincidence and you can’t talk about it. 

13 hours ago, Sensei said:

This is how mass murderer killing children look like:

@Anonymous

Whoever gave you a minus, clearly isn't aware of him.

Quote

Under his leadership, the Otzma Yehudit (Jewish Power), a party which espouses Kahanism and anti-Arabism, won six seats in the 2022 Israeli legislative election, and is represented in what has been called the most right-wing and hardline government in Israel's history.[7][8][9][10] He has called for the expulsion of Arab citizens of Israel who are not loyal to Israel.[10] Ben Gvir is "widely known for his openly racist, anti-Arab views and activities".[11] Israeli sociologist Eva Illouz has said Ben Gvir represents "Jewish fascism".[12]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itamar_Ben-Gvir#:~:text=Itamar Ben-Gvir (Hebrew%3A,and leader of Otzma Yehudit.

 

[Sensei]

33 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Whoever gave you a minus, clearly isn't aware of him.

..people have committed crimes.. not nations.. When you show their face, they are afraid of absolute justice..

 

 

.."the final judgement"..

 

[StringJunky]

8 minutes ago, Sensei said:

..people have committed crimes.. not nations.. When you show their face, they are afraid of absolute justice..

 

 

I had an impish desire to re-post him with a notoriously-iconic mustache. He could sew this on his kippa and wear his heart on his head.

Edited November 9, 2023 by StringJunky

[Sensei]

5 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

I had an impish desire to re-post him with a notoriously-iconic mustache.

https://www.google.com/search?q=the+victim+becomes+the+executioner

"The victim becomes the executioner"..

Mass murderers were often victims abused as children by family members, teachers, priests, acquaintances..

 

Whatever they do, they will create more "terrorists" and more people in the world who will want to kill him, his family, his nation and everyone else. "Terrorist-to-be" should be better informed so they know who to attack and who is responsible for their losses (i.e. who killed their family before they became "terrorist")..

[MigL]

Thank you CharoonY for the detailed timeline of events; I only posted the 'Cole's Notes' version.

Thank you String Junky and Sensei for making me aware ( more than I already am ) that every state has their own fanatics, and how willing some people are to follow them.

[Sensei]

4 minutes ago, MigL said:

Thank you String Junky and Sensei for making me aware ( more than I already am ) that every state has their own fanatics, and how willing some people are to follow them.

LOL. Your sense of humor. The wave interference can be constructive or destructive..

We will be in a destructive interference phase when all the madness in Gaza will also disappear..

 

[StringJunky]

22 minutes ago, MigL said:

Thank you CharoonY for the detailed timeline of events; I only posted the 'Cole's Notes' version.

Thank you String Junky and Sensei for making me aware ( more than I already am ) that every state has their own fanatics, and how willing some people are to follow them.

He's not just a side-show fanatic though, is he? He's actually pulling on the the levers of power there and writing policy.