Hamas attacks Israel with kit rockets and AK47's... US sends aircraft carrier in support.

[mistermack]

1 hour ago, OptimisticCynic said:

you won't admit they might really mean what they say?

I'm so angry, I'm going to divert the planet Mercury and smash it into New York. Are you going to flee in panic? Because Hamas has pretty much the same chance of killing you and everyone you know. As I'm sure you're well aware. Your standard of reasoning is pathetic. 

Israel on the other hand, with it's nuclear weapons and religious nut leadership, is more than capable of killing you, by kicking off a nuclear exchange that might end up making you history. But using your logic, of going by what people say, then of course they have no nukes, no sir !

[TheVat]

 

2 hours ago, OptimisticCynic said:

As I said before, I'm supporting the side that is not threatening to kill me and everyone I know.

Why must this be binary?  Why support either government, Hamas or a Far Right Likud government, both so invested in killing civilians and perpetuating a looping cycle of revenge now at least 75 years old?  You are not obligated to support either government.  Hamas, in reality, all their insane vicious bluster aside, is focused on regaining what Palestinians want, their land back.  The fact that their approach is terroristic and counterproductive is not some stamp of virtue on Israel nor does it absolve Israel of its decades long role in creating oppression and dispossession.  

[StringJunky]

7 hours ago, OptimisticCynic said:

In chronological order:

Hamas said, "We will eliminate all Jews from the planet. Then we will destroy the U.S.A.." 

Israel said, "We will eliminate Hamas from Gaza."

Which side is lying?

If they are both telling the truth as they see it, do you support world wide killing of Jews and Americans, or do you support killing Hamas members in Gaza?

I believe both sides fully intend to do exactly what they say. I support the side that plans to leave me alive.

In chronological order? Start from the 1890's when Zionists started concocting the events that led to the  debacle that began in 1948.

 

1 hour ago, TheVat said:

 

Why must this be binary?  Why support either government, Hamas or a Far Right Likud government, both so invested in killing civilians and perpetuating a looping cycle of revenge now at least 75 years old?  You are not obligated to support either government.  Hamas, in reality, all their insane vicious bluster aside, is focused on regaining what Palestinians want, their land back.  The fact that their approach is terroristic and counterproductive is not some stamp of virtue on Israel nor does it absolve Israel of its decades long role in creating oppression and dispossession.  

Ultimately, it's the most nationalistic sections of a society that rise up to an external threat first. The same with the early days in the Russo-Ukraine war, the far-right factions of either side were the initial vanguards  of paramilitary/partisan actions.

They were the first people to put their noses to the conflict grindstone. Hamas are a group of nationalists seeking to free their homeland; in their own eyes. 

I've also come to the conclusion the use of the word 'extremist' is meaningless, since it is a description that depends on ones position to another. What the respective nationalists are in fact is exclusionists. There's no relativism with this description... someone is either part of something or not. 

Edited November 29, 2023 by StringJunky

[OptimisticCynic]

1 hour ago, mistermack said:

I'm so angry, I'm going to divert the planet Mercury and smash it into New York. Are you going to flee in panic? Because Hamas has pretty much the same chance of killing you and everyone you know. As I'm sure you're well aware. Your standard of reasoning is pathetic. 

Israel on the other hand, with it's nuclear weapons and religious nut leadership, is more than capable of killing you, by kicking off a nuclear exchange that might end up making you history. But using your logic, of going by what people say, then of course they have no nukes, no sir ! 

When did you personally go investigate Israel's secrets? 

Are you going by what people say about Israel? Was it Hamas leaders who said that they wanted to nuke Israel and the USA?

You're showing off how pathetic your points are by ignoring my points in favor of changing the subject. Are you admitting now that you support killing Jews and Americans along with uninvolved civilian bystanders in every country around the world?

Hamas has a good chance to buy nukes from Iran or Russian thieves. Hamas would immediately use nukes. 

It's a lucky thing for civilization that tyrants and terrorists tend to be incompetent blusterers. Have you decided to stop supporting every government that goes to war yet? Or are you going to keep propagandizing for your favorite liars?

[StringJunky]

8 minutes ago, OptimisticCynic said:

When did you personally go investigate Israel's secrets? 

What does that mean?

[OptimisticCynic]

1 hour ago, StringJunky said:

What does that mean?

That means you are repeating what you heard from other people. Unless you did investigate in person.

2 hours ago, StringJunky said:

In chronological order? Start from the 1890's when Zionists started concocting the events that led to the  debacle that began in 1948.

 

Let's go further back. The Palestinians moved back from Egypt. They fought some other tribes and took over the land. They were later called Israelites. The history of that part of the world shows so many different peoples conquering and losing the area that it's a lie for any group to claim it as "our" land. Plus the times when all tribes had to abandon the area because of years of drought. 

3 hours ago, TheVat said:

 

Why must this be binary?  Why support either government, Hamas or a Far Right Likud government, both so invested in killing civilians and perpetuating a looping cycle of revenge now at least 75 years old?  You are not obligated to support either government.  Hamas, in reality, all their insane vicious bluster aside, is focused on regaining what Palestinians want, their land back.  The fact that their approach is terroristic and counterproductive is not some stamp of virtue on Israel nor does it absolve Israel of its decades long role in creating oppression and dispossession.  

I agree. It doesn't have to be binary. The people currently calling themselves "Palestinians" have no more ancestral claim to the territory than the Egyptians or the British. 

Winners of wars make rules and losers whine. When it comes to nations, "Might makes Right," is definitely a thing. World war 2 changed a lot of countries.  

The Israelis would have been wiser to refuse to build up the Gaza strip at all. They made it nice so Arafat decided to steal it. If Israel had left it undeveloped and stopped feeding them, the "Palestinians" would have moved away long ago.

[TheVat]

4 hours ago, OptimisticCynic said:

The Israelis would have been wiser to refuse to build up the Gaza strip at all. They made it nice so Arafat decided to steal it. If Israel had left it undeveloped and stopped feeding them, the "Palestinians" would have moved away long ago.

Stopped feeding them - seriously?  You make them sound like stray cats.  If you didn't intend a racist slur on these people, then perhaps you should learn some of their history.

These people owned and ran farms and grew olives and dates and other cash crops.  They sustained themselves for generations and then were driven off their lands and shoved into a tiny space without consent or due process of law.  They didn't go there because Israel "made it nice."  The Naqba ravaged their lives and means of economic autonomy and created a misery and anger that comes from that genuine condition and is amped up by each new round of brutality and heavy civilian casualties that Israel's many attacks  have brought, and the ongoing degradation of being shoved into horrible conditions of overcrowding and restricted rights and various embargos.

It's rather like someone knocking you down, putting their boot on your face and whenever you punch at their leg they cry, Look!  Look how awful a person he is!  He is a vicious leg puncher!  No wonder I have to keep this boot here!  Oy!

[StringJunky]

On 11/29/2023 at 11:46 PM, TheVat said:

Stopped feeding them - seriously?  You make them sound like stray cats.  If you didn't intend a racist slur on these people, then perhaps you should learn some of their history.

These people owned and ran farms and grew olives and dates and other cash crops.  They sustained themselves for generations and then were driven off their lands and shoved into a tiny space without consent or due process of law.  They didn't go there because Israel "made it nice."  The Naqba ravaged their lives and means of economic autonomy and created a misery and anger that comes from that genuine condition and is amped up by each new round of brutality and heavy civilian casualties that Israel's many attacks  have brought, and the ongoing degradation of being shoved into horrible conditions of overcrowding and restricted rights and various embargos.

It's rather like someone knocking you down, putting their boot on your face and whenever you punch at their leg they cry, Look!  Look how awful a person he is!  He is a vicious leg puncher!  No wonder I have to keep this boot here!  Oy!

"Down with antisemitism!":

There is a short video of a Zionist  railing on two Anti-Zionist (proper Talmud-respecting Jews) Jews in the link.

Edited December 1, 2023 by StringJunky

[TheVat]

GAZA = BAKERSFIELD

Was curious how small Gaza is, given the frequent and quite credible use of the word crammed to describe conditions of the people there.

140 square miles.   So it is the size of Bakersfield CA.  Bakersfield has 400,000 people, who can come and go from there, and is surrounded by accessible open land and a nation which it is part of.  Gaza has 2.2 million people, penned in like animals.  And they are currently confined to about half of that land area, due to the wholesale destruction of North Gaza.  So it is currently a state with about ten times the population density of Bakersfield.  In its better days,  it was five times.

Its largest city, Gaza City, was more tightly packed than New York City, with more than 650,000 people living within its 18 square miles. Gaza City had triple the population density of Washington DC, twice the density of San Francisco.  These other cities, of course, have orders of magnitude more wealth and infrastructure tailored to handling a dense population and robust supply chains bringing in food and amenities.

So this leads me to wonder, as bombing has now resumed by Israel, of the southern part of Gaza, where are all these civilians supposed to flee to while the war continues.

 

Edited December 2, 2023 by TheVat

[StringJunky]

42 minutes ago, TheVat said:

GAZA = BAKERSFIELD

Was curious how small Gaza is, given the frequent and quite credible use of the word crammed to describe conditions of the people there.

140 square miles.   So it is the size of Bakersfield CA.  Bakersfield has 400,000 people, who can come and go from there, and is surrounded by accessible open land and a nation which it is part of.  Gaza has 2.2 million people, penned in like animals.  And they are currently confined to about half of that land area, due to the wholesale destruction of North Gaza.  So it is currently a state with about ten times the population density of Bakersfield.  In its better days,  it was five times.

Its largest city, Gaza City, was more tightly packed than New York City, with more than 650,000 people living within its 18 square miles. Gaza City had triple the population density of Washington DC, twice the density of San Francisco.  These other cities, of course, have orders of magnitude more wealth and infrastructure tailored to handling a dense population and robust supply chains bringing in food and amenities.

So this leads me to wonder, as bombing has now resumed by Israel, of the southern part of Gaza, where are all these civilians supposed to flee to while the war continues.

 

And they want to make it even smaller by creating a buffer zone in Gaza from Israel. 

 

Edited December 2, 2023 by StringJunky

[mistermack]

7 hours ago, TheVat said:

Was curious how small Gaza is, given the frequent and quite credible use of the word crammed to describe conditions of the people there.

140 square miles.

It you rearranged that to a circle, it would have a radius of 6.7 miles. 

[J.C.MacSwell]

On 12/2/2023 at 1:47 PM, TheVat said:

 

So this leads me to wonder, as bombing has now resumed by Israel, of the southern part of Gaza, where are all these civilians supposed to flee to while the war continues.

 

Certainly not further south into the Sanai. Egypt doesn't want them there, even though the Gazans don't seem to espouse elimination of the Egyptian population.

Egypt has reasons for confining them as well, as does the rest of the countries of the Middle East, and the World for that matter.

 

[AIkonoklazt]

I don't think Hamas cares about Palestinians.

In other news, Congressional stupidity continues unabated:

https://www.npr.org/2023/11/03/1210386678/house-approves-military-aid-israel

It's partisan, of course. Democrats want Ukraine funding, so nopers- We'll take the money and shove it to Israel (seriously? IDF needs the funding because they're short?) These congresscritters really have their priorities straight. There isn't enough political will to see the Ukrainian war to the end, so Russia will probably prevail. After Ukraine, Moldova is next. After that, who the ____ knows.

[MigL]

Off the top of my head, I can think of two COUNTRIES smaller than Gaza that are very successful; San Marino and the Vatican.
Thay have 'porous' borders, like Gaza used to have prior to 2005, but no one would call them 'open air prisons'
Sometimes, when you lose a war that you started, you need to choose how to go forward; whether to seek 'revenge' on the victors, as Germany chose to do after Versailles, or rebuild and earn the respect of the world, as Japan ( and West Germany ) did after WW2.
Maybe that choice should have been made by Palestinians and other Arabs who were occupied by Israel after 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973, 1982, and 2006 when Hamas took over.
Maybe someday they'll learn ...

Incidentally, contrary to Mistermack's assertions, it is a known fact that Israel has had nuclear capabilities for some 30odd years, and they have never used them.
Does anyone doubt that, if given similar capability, Hamas  ( who ARE Palestinian ) would not use them against Israel ?
Does anyone think they care how many of their own people they would incinerate ?

Sure, some Israelis are expansionists and greedy, but some Palestinians ( Hamas ) are hell-bent on revenge, no matter what the cost.
Some members, String Junky and TheVat, are making excuses for them, even going as far as blaming the US for defending a country that has been attacked by its neighbors 6 times in the last 60 years.
I won't even consider Mistermack' s views; he/she simply hates Israelis/Jews, or anyone who thinks everyone in the region has a right to live in peace and not be subject to terror.

[StringJunky]

7 minutes ago, MigL said:

Off the top of my head, I can think of two COUNTRIES smaller than Gaza that are very successful; San Marino and the Vatican.
Thay have 'porous' borders, like Gaza used to have prior to 2005, but no one would call them 'open air prisons'
Sometimes, when you lose a war that you started, you need to choose how to go forward; whether to seek 'revenge' on the victors, as Germany chose to do after Versailles, or rebuild and earn the respect of the world, as Japan ( and West Germany ) did after WW2.
Maybe that choice should have been made by Palestinians and other Arabs who were occupied by Israel after 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973, 1982, and 2006 when Hamas took over.
Maybe someday they'll learn ...

Incidentally, contrary to Mistermack's assertions, it is a known fact that Israel has had nuclear capabilities for some 30odd years, and they have never used them.
Does anyone doubt that, if given similar capability, Hamas  ( who ARE Palestinian ) would not use them against Israel ?
Does anyone think they care how many of their own people they would incinerate ?

Sure, some Israelis are expansionists and greedy, but some Palestinians ( Hamas ) are hell-bent on revenge, no matter what the cost.
Some members, String Junky and TheVat, are making excuses for them, even going as far as blaming the US for defending a country that has been attacked by its neighbors 6 times in the last 60 years.
I won't even consider Mistermack' s views; he/she simply hates Israelis/Jews, or anyone who thinks everyone in the region has a right to live in peace and not be subject to terror.

  A sufficiently myopic gaze  upon the history would concur with your view.  Mutual destruction of opposing ideologies is the name of the game here.

[MigL]

My myopia was 'fixed' when I had cataract surgery;my up-close vision now needs correction.
But I do know History pretty well ..

Israel was attacked by neighbors in 5 of the 6 wars of the last 60 years. 
The one exception is  when they took out the airfields of a couuntry that was preparing to attack them ( Egypt expelled UN peacekeepers and built up forces in the Sinai, along with collaborating Arab states and even the USSR ).

See the 6 day war of 1967.

[iNow]

4 hours ago, MigL said:

Hamas  ( who ARE Palestinian )

It doesn’t go the other way, though.

Palestinians are not Hamas any more than Iraqis are ISIS / ISIL. 

4 hours ago, MigL said:

Maybe someday they'll learn ...

I’m not familiar with the Hamas command structure, but who’s making the decisions on this?

[geordief]

4 hours ago, MigL said:

Does anyone doubt that, if given similar capability, Hamas  ( who ARE Palestinian

I have been wondering for a while....are the Hamas fighters all local Palestinians or are they largely foreign fighters?

 

I had always assumed the latter but it is now  looking  more like they are genuinely representative  (and repressive) of the local population (although I assume there must be some foreign fighters amongst them)

[swansont]

1 hour ago, geordief said:

I have been wondering for a while....are the Hamas fighters all local Palestinians or are they largely foreign fighters?

 

I had always assumed the latter but it is now  looking  more like they are genuinely representative  (and repressive) of the local population (although I assume there must be some foreign fighters amongst them)

In what way are they “representative”?

[geordief]

1 minute ago, swansont said:

In what way are they “representative”?

Just in that (if they are composed of,in the main  the indigenous population )they represent that population to the extent that they are a part of it.

So ,if 2%(?) of the population are Hamas fighters  then they represent the population to a very  small extent.

But if  we suppose  that   some 50 % of the population approve of Hamas then  that body (and Hamas itself)  could well be said to be representative to a greater degree.

That is what I had in mind when I used the term "representative"

I meant it in a way that there were various  different strands  of representation  throughout the population   and not that Hamas had any legitimacy(it may have had at the time of the last elections  but that legitimacy  has imo run its course 

 

Even so I understand that (,whether or not they are free to express it without consequence  ) it seems that Hamas has a lot more support in the general population than I am happy with.

I would be very ,very happy if that was not the case  but I fear it may be so.

[iNow]

2 minutes ago, geordief said:

we suppose  that   some 50 % of the population approve of Hamas then

50% of the population are under 18… children. 

https://www.npr.org/2023/10/18/1206897328/half-of-gazas-population-is-under-18-heres-what-that-means-for-the-conflict#:~:text=Transcript-,About half of Gaza's population are under 18.,under the age of 18.

[geordief]

33 minutes ago, iNow said:

50% of the population are under 18… children. 

https://www.npr.org/2023/10/18/1206897328/half-of-gazas-population-is-under-18-heres-what-that-means-for-the-conflict#:~:text=Transcript-,About half of Gaza's population are under 18.,under the age of 18.

Sure ,I had in mind  a couple of opinion polls that were released a  while back that showed a high level of support for Hamas (and very little for PLO)

Under normal circumstances I would expect  those preferences to be passed down the generations. 

Of course I cannot know and I don't know what were the age cohorts in the  2 opinion polls either.

But I said 50% as an example to show ,as we all probably agree that there was ,and probably still is support in the general population for Hamas above and beyond the actual membership 

I would much rather there was not but I expect that there is.

I also expect ,that when this military  operation is concluded that there will remain a high level of support for Hamas even though its expression may be prohibited by law.

I have no idea what will happen after Hamas has been defeated  militarily 

I wonder if even the PLO will want to get involved in Gaza.

Edited December 8, 2023 by geordief

[MigL]

37 minutes ago, geordief said:

it seems that Hamas has a lot more support in the general population

I doubt it very much.
Hamas took over 'governance' of Gaza from the Palestinian Authority by force ( bombings and murders ) almost 20 years ago.
There has been no semblance of governance, and certainly no elections, since.
International aid, meant for the population ( and the children INow mentioned ) is stockpiled by Hamas to take care of their fighters when the IDF retaliates, and they have to scurry like rats to their underground tunnels and bunkers, conveniently located under hospitals and schools, where the Palestinian population ( and the children INow mentioned ) can be collateral of the IDF retaliation, and Hamas has another propaganda victory for fools and anti-Semites to protest/boycott Israel about.

[geordief]

40 minutes ago, MigL said:

I doubt it very much.
Hamas took over 'governance' of Gaza from the Palestinian Authority by force ( bombings and murders ) almost 20 years ago.
There has been no semblance of governance, and certainly no elections, since.
International aid, meant for the population ( and the children INow mentioned ) is stockpiled by Hamas to take care of their fighters when the IDF retaliates, and they have to scurry like rats to their underground tunnels and bunkers, conveniently located under hospitals and schools, where the Palestinian population ( and the children INow mentioned ) can be collateral of the IDF retaliation, and Hamas has another propaganda victory for fools and anti-Semites to protest/boycott Israel about.

Maybe I am biased /pessimistic but I  kind of assume that Hamas has support in the Arab population generally and that that would be reflected in Gaza.

Did you see the polls I mentioned above where the PA's support has dropped off a cliff(around 10% compared to a healthy >50% for Hamas)?

I think the poll was in the West Bank and possibly Gaza too.

I know that Hamas has no democratic mandate but that doesn't mean it can't still be popular.

I mean the enemy of my enemy has to be my friend.And Israel  I guess is most people's enemy(which is Hamas'  ongoing objective of course)

Edit:of course I hope that you are right to "doubt it very much"

Edited December 8, 2023 by geordief

[AIkonoklazt]

3 hours ago, geordief said:

Even so I understand that (,whether or not they are free to express it without consequence  ) it seems that Hamas has a lot more support in the general population than I am happy with.

 

I would be very ,very happy if that was not the case  but I fear it may be so.

Not sure if any group of people would "support" those who directly lords over them through a sort of "terror governance..."

https://theconversation.com/gaza-war-how-representative-is-hamas-of-ordinary-palestinians-218080

Quote

 

An earlier poll taken by the Washington Institute in July 2023, moreover, found that 62% of people in Gaza supported Hamas maintaining a ceasefire with Israel and 50% agreed that: “Hamas should stop calling for Israel’s destruction, and instead accept a permanent two-state solution based on the 1967 borders.”

So, given the gulf between Hamas’s aims and style of governance, how has it kept control of the enclave of 2.2 million people for so long? It’s important to remember that there have been no elections since 2006 and the average age of people in Gaza is about 18, meaning most people have not had the chance to vote for any other leadership.

Hamas has also reportedly ruled with an iron fist. Hamas has used strict and authoritarian methods of control, applying its own interpretations of strict sharia law, enforcing gender segregation in public, controlling the media, repressing any political opposition and eliminating all mechanisms of transparency and accountability.

Numerous reports have detailed human rights abuses conducted by Hamas against Palestinian civilians, including arbitrary detention, torture, punishment beatings and the death penalty. To be fair, a report in 2018 from Human Rights Watch found that similar human rights abuse was just as common in the West Bank under the Fatah-led PA. Hamas also stands accused of harassing journalists who criticise its government.