dimreepr Posted October 10, 2023 Posted October 10, 2023 When we don't understand what it means... Discuss
iNow Posted October 10, 2023 Posted October 10, 2023 Who says we don't fight for it? Do we not understand what it means and feels like for us personally? Regardless of these answers, it's an issue of values and self-identity. Like terminates constructing a nest or huge mound, we shape the world around us in accordance with our genetic predispositions and needs of the society around us. Just because not all "nests" and "mounds" are physical, tangible, or visible (freedom and love still exist as concepts even though I cannot touch and feel them, after all), that doesn't mean that we as biological organisms aren't still striving toward those shapes, patterns, and outcomes in our day to day behaviors. We "fight" for freedom for the same reason we "fight" for food and shelter, it's just at a different layer of the hierarchy proposed by Maslow.
dimreepr Posted October 10, 2023 Author Posted October 10, 2023 38 minutes ago, iNow said: Who says we don't fight for it? Not me... 39 minutes ago, iNow said: Do we not understand what it means and feels like for us personally? I'm not sure, do we? For instance, a prisoner with a death sentence, could be far more free than you; his last meal, perhaps...
TheVat Posted October 10, 2023 Posted October 10, 2023 As former HG peoples, we have a deeply felt need for mobility - any sense that we cannot move about freely (as is felt by, for example, most residents of Gaza) can arouse a trapped anxious feeling. We have an instinctive grasp that prisons and prison-like states are places we do not want to be. People cope with such conditions of confinement by finding interior freedoms to compensate. You don't have to be Mandela to do that. That was the point of some of the cruelties of Guantanamo, to try and deprive detainees even the freedom of their imaginations by blasting music at them, depriving them of sleep, etc.
dimreepr Posted October 10, 2023 Author Posted October 10, 2023 39 minutes ago, TheVat said: As former HG peoples, we have a deeply felt need for mobility - any sense that we cannot move about freely (as is felt by, for example, most residents of Gaza) can arouse a trapped anxious feeling. We have an instinctive grasp that prisons and prison-like states are places we do not want to be. People cope with such conditions of confinement by finding interior freedoms to compensate. You don't have to be Mandela to do that. That was the point of some of the cruelties of Guantanamo, to try and deprive detainees even the freedom of their imaginations by blasting music at them, depriving them of sleep, etc. Indeed, it seems the more we understand freedom; the more we try to deprive it of other's...
dimreepr Posted October 11, 2023 Author Posted October 11, 2023 So, why do we fight for a freedom we know we can't have? Because the lottery says "it might be you" and we'll give a little bit of our freedom to chase down that dream, until one day it says "it is you" and we'll finally understand...
iNow Posted October 11, 2023 Posted October 11, 2023 4 minutes ago, dimreepr said: why do we fight for a freedom we know we can't have? You assume we "know we can't have" freedom, and I reject that as specious to the point of defeatism. Hope springs eternal
StringJunky Posted October 12, 2023 Posted October 12, 2023 (edited) On 10/10/2023 at 3:57 PM, TheVat said: As former HG peoples, we have a deeply felt need for mobility - any sense that we cannot move about freely (as is felt by, for example, most residents of Gaza) can arouse a trapped anxious feeling. We have an instinctive grasp that prisons and prison-like states are places we do not want to be. People cope with such conditions of confinement by finding interior freedoms to compensate. You don't have to be Mandela to do that. That was the point of some of the cruelties of Guantanamo, to try and deprive detainees even the freedom of their imaginations by blasting music at them, depriving them of sleep, etc. If Gazans were spread out, they have about 150m2 of land each. It has one of the highest population densities in the world. I did a back of the envelope sum yesterday. Not all of that 140km2 will be habitable to hold the 2 million population. They have even less space now the high-rises are getting blown up. Compressing people like that can only perpetuate animosity. Likud want to wipe out/evict Palestinians, so that they can realize their biblical colonial fantasy. This, I think, is their ultimate raison de etre and where their current actions are leading. Philosophically, where one has peace of mind, I equate that with a proper sense of freedom. Edited October 12, 2023 by StringJunky removed redundant sentence I started but not finished 1
Peterkin Posted October 12, 2023 Posted October 12, 2023 (edited) On 10/10/2023 at 10:47 AM, dimreepr said: For instance, a prisoner with a death sentence, could be far more free than you; his last meal, perhaps... Not unless he felt terribly guilty and would have committed suicide if others didn't kill him. 11 hours ago, dimreepr said: So, why do we fight for a freedom we know we can't have? Because, if we really know that we cannot get free, we lie down and stop eating. The tiger pacing back and forth behind his bars still doesn't know that he can never escape: he's still holding on to a vestige of hope. So does a guerilla in occupied territory. Risking death is no big deal compared to accepting eternal captivity. 1 hour ago, StringJunky said: Philosophically, where one has peace of mind, I equate that with a proper sense of freedom. I doubt most animals can have proper peace of mind in a prison. A few probably do, and stop fighting. That makes them suitable zoo exhibits, while the pacing tiger disturbs the visitors' peace of mind. Edited October 12, 2023 by Peterkin
dimreepr Posted October 12, 2023 Author Posted October 12, 2023 (edited) 22 hours ago, iNow said: You assume we "know we can't have" freedom, and I reject that as specious to the point of defeatism. Hope springs eternal Good point, but what I'm assuming, in the OP, is that most of us don't understand what freedom is; hoping in this context is like buying a lottery ticket, even if you win you still haven't got it. My point is, defeatism doesn't have to be a negative approach... 11 hours ago, Peterkin said: Not unless he felt terribly guilty and would have committed suicide if others didn't kill him. I did say "could". 11 hours ago, Peterkin said: Because, if we really know that we cannot get free, we lie down and stop eating. The tiger pacing back and forth behind his bars still doesn't know that he can never escape: he's still holding on to a vestige of hope. So does a guerilla in occupied territory. Risking death is no big deal compared to accepting eternal captivity. 12 hours ago, StringJunky said: Philosophically, where one has peace of mind, I equate that with a proper sense of freedom. I doubt most animals can have proper peace of mind in a prison. A few probably do, and stop fighting. That makes them suitable zoo exhibits, while the pacing tiger disturbs the visitors' peace of mind. That rather depends on the prison, not the prisoners... 12 hours ago, StringJunky said: Philosophically, where one has peace of mind, I equate that with a proper sense of freedom. +1 Edited October 12, 2023 by dimreepr
iNow Posted October 12, 2023 Posted October 12, 2023 1 hour ago, dimreepr said: what I'm assuming, in the OP, is that most of us don't understand what freedom is That's a mighty big assumption, and you know what they say about people who assume... asses, you's, and me's... 1 hour ago, dimreepr said: hoping in this context is like buying a lottery ticket, even if you win you still haven't got it. Studies seem to suggest we gain more joy from the anticipation of the event or trip or vacation (from the "hoping" and "planning" and "considering in advance") than we gain from the experience itself (the winning and the doing/going, etc.). It stands to reason that thinking of freedom and considering all the myriad ways we're already free may bring greater wellbeing than the freedom itself. The underlying concept is described as anticipatory joy. It's like a forward looking rumination, but with a positive emotional valance.
dimreepr Posted October 12, 2023 Author Posted October 12, 2023 1 hour ago, iNow said: That's a mighty big assumption, and you know what they say about people who assume... asses, you's, and me's... Studies seem to suggest we gain more joy from the anticipation of the event or trip or vacation (from the "hoping" and "planning" and "considering in advance") than we gain from the experience itself (the winning and the doing/going, etc.). It stands to reason that thinking of freedom and considering all the myriad ways we're already free may bring greater wellbeing than the freedom itself. The underlying concept is described as anticipatory joy. It's like a forward looking rumination, but with a positive emotional valance. The antipode of that is, how easily a holiday is spoiled by a soiled pillow...
Peterkin Posted October 12, 2023 Posted October 12, 2023 10 hours ago, dimreepr said: My point is, defeatism doesn't have to be a negative approach... Right. If your cage is comfortable and your food-bowl always filled on time, who needs autonomy?
dimreepr Posted October 13, 2023 Author Posted October 13, 2023 12 hours ago, Peterkin said: Right. If your cage is comfortable and your food-bowl always filled on time, who needs autonomy? What makes you think that cage isn't yours? 19 hours ago, iNow said: ohh... kay... It's all over social media and day time TV, my holiday (and therefore my entire year) was spoiled, because it didn't live up to the hype, created by 'them'; and I can never forgive 'them' unless they suffer as much as I imagined that I had.
LingNeutron Posted December 12, 2023 Posted December 12, 2023 We fight for freedom because it's about expressing ourselves, making choices, and shaping our own paths. It's at the core of human dignity, giving us the power to pursue what makes us thrive, both as individuals and communities. 1
dimreepr Posted December 12, 2023 Author Posted December 12, 2023 6 hours ago, LingNeutron said: We fight for freedom because it's about expressing ourselves, making choices, and shaping our own paths. It's at the core of human dignity, giving us the power to pursue what makes us thrive, both as individuals and communities. This is the matrix argument, humans inate sense of freedom would reject utopia on principal... Not a very convincing argument, because when we take a poll; '8 out of 10 cat's' would prefer to be eating dinner, than fighting a war... The other 2 cats can fight amongst themselves... 😉
LingNeutron Posted December 13, 2023 Posted December 13, 2023 56 minutes ago, TammyK said: When we enjoy the freedom to express ourselves, it opens up a world of possibilities. Likewise, when aiming to enhance our online presence, opting for high-quality backlinks can be a thoughtful strategic decision. 👍 Right! The best choice is knowing where to buy quality backlinks! Hahaha, we're on the same page, lolol~
dimreepr Posted December 13, 2023 Author Posted December 13, 2023 12 hours ago, LingNeutron said: Right! The best choice is knowing where to buy quality backlinks! Hahaha, we're on the same page, lolol~ Never gamble with more than you can afford to lose; the freedom to eat, for instance.
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