How Can George Bush Represent the People if.......

[Sayonara]

But what I'm still not getting is this: what makes them special that they can do something obviously "wrong*" and get away with it? How are they justifying it besides "for the benifits and they 'love each other'"? I don't really see why they should have the same rights. Are you hurting the rights on an alien who crossed our borders by sending him back? That alien didn't do anything to you.

 

*Wrong in the sense that it doesn't make any sense to have two people of the same sex when the whole purpose of male and female was to have two seperate sexes.

Well that was disappointing.

 

What gives you the right to demand that people in any kind of mutual' date=' adult relationship "justify" themselves? And even if they did, what gives you the right to determine the standards against which people will be measured?

 

If one is going to take your view, then [b']anyone[/b] in a non-reproductive relationship is "doing something obviously wrong".

 

Taking the "nature intended" approach is doomed to failure, for the reasons already mentioned.

 

But if you can't work within the bounds set up and withheld in this country, I don't see why you deserve the rights that this country offers.

Well, see that's where the problem is. Asking for the right to marry is not working outside the bounds, it's asking to be allowed to work within them.

The laws of the USA expressly forbid discrimination. The only reason gay people can't marry is because of fundamentalist crackpots, and the millions of people with uninformed opinions like yours*.

 

 

* No offence intended.

[jordan]

Alright, I resign. There are too many fronts to continue this and small things are starting to bias anyone who would read the thread anyway. Just to hit a few things though:

 

1) Someone a while ago mentioned me arguing from the point of the Bible. I don't use the Bible in arguements and I didn't in this one. All my statements about two different sexes were derived from what I consider common sense.

 

2)

What gives you the right to demand that people in any kind of mutual, adult relationship "justify" themselves?

When they wish to change something, they have to have a justifiable reason.

[Sayonara]

When they wish to change something, they have to have a justifiable reason.

They don't want to change anything - they want people to stop barring them from having what the constitution guarantees they can have.

[Phi for All]

You know' date=' I think another important aspect of this gay marriage issue, is distraction.

 

Lets make abortion and gay marriage a big deal for the election year, so we can distract all the conservatives in the country so they do not realize how crappy of a president bush has been. He is against gay marriage and abortion, who cares, or in this case, thinks about the fact that he is ruining everyone's freedom?[/quote']I definitely agree with drz here. Never forget that spin doctors abound in politics and they are fully aware that when they bring up sensitive issues like homosexuality or platform differences, the public shifts its focus away from what's really important.

 

I still believe the first Gulf War was initiated partly because George Sr and sons Jeb & Neil were heavily involved in the S&L scandals and Daddy needed something to divert public attention then. That was a $1.4 trillion rip-off and one of the most brilliant spin-doctoring jobs of the century. Here's a link to that farce for those who were too young at the time, but be warned: it's kind of slanted against the Bush family.

[Severian]

I honestly don't understand why this is such a big deal for gay folks. I mean to be openly gay, out of the closet so to speak, must take a great deal of courage. They must be willing to risk social condemnation and adverse reactions, so I had always thought of such open people as being strong personalities. But to need acknowledgement and official recognition of their relationships from the state seems very much at odds with my previous view. (And it isn't for the extra rights given with marriage - these can be done with a visit to a lawyer.)

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

I've seen a gay parade before, and believe me, they have no hope to get sympathy.

You do NOT want to see pictures, either.

If they want rights, they should try to get respect. And they fail miserably at that, just looking at the parade. That's why most people don't like them: they fail miserably at getting respect.

I understand why people hate gays, or gay rights.

[atinymonkey]

I've seen a gay parade before' date=' and believe me, they have no hope to get sympathy.

You do NOT want to see pictures, either.

If they want rights, they should try to get respect. And they fail miserably at that, just looking at the parade. That's why most people don't like them: they fail miserably at getting respect.

I understand why people hate gays, or gay rights.[/quote']

 

I've seen an American Restaurant before, and believe me; they have no hope to get sympathy.

You do NOT want to see pictures, either.

If they want rights, they should try to get respect. And they fail miserably at that, just looking at the Restaurant patrons . That's why most people don't like them: they fail miserably at getting respect.

I understand why people hate Fat Americans, or Obese Americans rights.

[Sayonara]

I honestly don't understand why this is such a big deal for gay folks. I mean to be openly gay, out of the closet so to speak, must take a great deal of courage. They must be willing to risk social condemnation and adverse reactions, so I had always thought of such open people as being strong personalities. But to need[/b'] acknowledgement and official recognition of their relationships from the state seems very much at odds with my previous view. (And it isn't for the extra rights given with marriage - these can be done with a visit to a lawyer.)

Ever heard the phrase "second class citizen"?

[Sayonara]

I've seen a woman's beauty salon before' date=' and believe me, they have no hope to get sympathy.

You do NOT want to see pictures, either.

If they want rights, they should try to get respect. And they fail miserably at that, just looking at the salon. That's why most people don't like them: they fail miserably at getting respect.

I understand why people hate women, or women's rights.[/quote']

Pa-choing.

[Severian]

Ever heard the phrase "second class citizen"?

 

So do you think that people who live together but are not married are second class citizens too?

[Sayonara]

So do you think that people who live together but are not married are second class citizens too?

No, I think they are unmarried because they (a) do not wish to get married, (b) have not married yet, or © are prevented from marrying for legal reasons which are independent of sexuality.

 

Second-class citizenry comes from being entitled to fewer rights than the average citizen for no good reason, and you aren't going to magically sweep that away by saying things like "their requirements are at odds with my views".

[Severian]

I understand what you are saying, but I still don't see why it would be an emotive issue. I don't understand why gay people would want to get married. I am not legally allowed to own a hand gun, and I suppose I could whine about my rights and organise parades in the street to persuade the powers that be to change their laws, but since I don't particularly miss having a hand gun I don't. I don't see anything of importance that gay people are prevented from doing.

 

Of course, obviously a lot of gay people do see getting married as 'important' but given their rejection of 'traditional' society, that attitude puzzles me.

[atinymonkey]

Of course' date=' obviously a lot of gay people [b']do[/b] see getting married as 'important' but given their rejection of 'traditional' society, that attitude puzzles me.

 

Perhaps if you knew what rights were afforded to a person through marriage, this discussion would be cut shorter. For instance, preferential mortgages/loans and tax breaks are available as well as the increased ability to adopt children.

[Sayonara]

I understand what you are saying' date=' but I still don't see why it would be an emotive issue. I don't understand why gay people would want to get married. I am not legally allowed to own a hand gun, and I suppose I could whine about my rights and organise parades in the street to persuade the powers that be to change their laws, but since I don't particularly miss having a hand gun I don't. I don't see anything of importance that gay people are prevented from doing.

 

Of course, obviously a lot of gay people [b']do[/b] see getting married as 'important' but given their rejection of 'traditional' society, that attitude puzzles me.

Is there one portion of the population that are allowed to own guns, and one that isn't? If so, what is the difference between those populations? I hardly think a gay marriage is going to shoot anyone from a bell tower.

 

Whether or not you see that it is important to them does not change the fact that it is. If you were arguing for your rights in a similar matter, would you want random gay people debating whether or not they considered your position to be good enough to meet with their approval? I think not.

 

I think that accusing the gay community of "rejecting traditional society" is a sweeping generalisation and bit of a red herring, given the decades or discrimination, ostracisation and persecution. Regardless of the more exotic elements you see parading once a year, or being lampooned or exploited in some daytime chat show or comedy, most gay people are everyday humans who are just trying to get on with their lives like everybody else.

[Severian]

Perhaps if you knew what rights were afforded to a person through marriage, this discussion would be cut shorter. For instance, preferential mortgages/loans and tax breaks are available as well as the increased ability to adopt children.

 

That is an argument for banning hetrosexual marriages too - not increasing the applicability of marriage.

[Severian]

Whether or not you see that it is important to them does not change the fact that it is. If you were arguing for your rights in a similar matter' date=' would you want random gay people debating whether or not they considered your position to be good enough to meet with their approval? I think not.

[/quote']

 

I am not in any way questioning their right to see the issue as important. I am just surprised that they do.

 

I think that accusing the gay community of "rejecting traditional society" is a sweeping generalisation and bit of a red herring, given the decades or discrimination, ostracisation and persecution. Regardless of the more exotic elements you see parading once a year, or being lampooned or exploited in some daytime chat show or comedy, most gay people are everyday humans who are just trying to get on with their lives like everybody else.

 

Heh. I meant "rejecting traditional society" in a good way, in that they have been strong enough to stand up for what they believe and say who they really are, rather than cowering in the closet, ashamed of themselves and put down by society. They have not been worried about appearances and offending the sensibilities of the middle class. By contrast, I see the campaigning for gay marriage as showing that many of them (by no means all) are actually rather concerned about appearances after all.

 

I suppose one could see it as standing up for themselves and their 'rights', but I can't help but see it as a lot of whining to try and force the rest of society to accept them.

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

Pa-choing.

What are you trying to imply here?

 

Seriously, have you ever seen a gay pride parade? A guy with a carmen miranda hat and leather straps across his chest and both "buns" showing, each with a little colored mark on them.

I have pictures too.

[Sayonara]

I am not in any way questioning their right to see the issue as important. I am just surprised that they do.

I see.

 

 

Heh. I meant "rejecting traditional society" in a good way, in that they have been strong enough to stand up for what they believe and say who they really are, rather than cowering in the closet, ashamed of themselves and put down by society. They have not been worried about appearances and offending the sensibilities of the middle class. By contrast, I see the campaigning for gay marriage as showing that many of them (by no means all) are actually rather concerned about appearances after all.

 

I suppose one could see it as standing up for themselves and their 'rights', but I can't help but see it as a lot of whining to try and force the rest of society to accept them.

People are very good at ignoring things that don't directly affect them. Making yourself more visible certainly seem to be the way to get people talking about your issues.

[Sayonara]

What are you trying to imply here?

I'm sure I don't know what you could possiby mean.

 

 

Seriously, have you ever seen a gay pride parade? A guy with a carmen miranda hat and leather straps across his chest and both "buns" showing, each with a little colored mark on them.

So?

 

 

I have pictures too.

Ah, the evidence mounts

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

I'm just trying to say that they are failing miserably at trying to get respect and rights.

[Sayonara]

I'm just trying to say that they are failing miserably at trying to get respect and rights.

Since when were parades about gaining respect?

 

People earn respect as individuals, for the things they do and the things they say. And suggesting that the allocation of their rights should be determined by what they wore during a parade is farcical.

[Phi for All]

To me, it seems that those of you who think homosexuals are unnatural and have "rejected" traditional society, or are not worthy of respect or sympathetic feelings, have locked yourselves into your Towers of Morality and are judging Those Who Are Not Like You as being inferior. Sure, homosexuals could get a lawyer to have a judge issue a court order to be allowed to visit their partner in intensive care but why should they have to go to the extra expense? Your lack of tolerance in this issue shows you harbor very bigoted attitudes, and whether or not you approve of the lifestyle, you are showing that the USA is no longer a land of freedom with respect to individual rights.

 

So what if some gay guy IN A PARADE shows off his buns? Are you jealous, were they great buns? How can you watch a halftime show with girls in thongs and then say it's wrong if a guy's buns hang out? How can you call yourself a freedom-oriented American and NOT grant a homosexual couple the right to a state sanctioned marriage which should make their bond stronger? You used to call the gays promiscuous and now that they want the sanctity of marriage you want to withhold that?

 

Can you honestly tell me what you are afraid of?

[jordan]

Honestly, I don't look at this issue as being whether you like gays or not. It has little do with them at all. All I know is that they are looking for acceptance, which I am glad to give except that they haven't given a good reason yet. All I've heard is "they love each other¹" and "you're just intolerant²". Well can they explain why they have to chose a different lifestyle then most and parade it around? Why have they been unable to lead a normal lifestyle? Have they tried? I don't really think they all have. I would believe that it is more about the attention and rebelion for most.

 

1: Acceptable, but see ensuing questions.

2: Not a good reason at all.

[Sayonara]

Sorry to have to say this Jordan (and quite shocked at you to be honest), but that post demonstrates a great deal of ignorance about the issue.

 

If you cannot see any way of separating gay culture from gay individuals, then I don't see how your questions shouldn't be applied to any other minority group.

[Phi for All]

Well can they explain why they have to chose a different lifestyle then most and parade it around? Why have they been unable to lead a normal lifestyle? Have they tried? I don't really think they all have. I would believe that it is more about the attention and rebelion for most.

It is unfair, I suppose, to bring up your youth and lack of experience in life, but I have no other recourse when you make statements like this. You say they have chosen an abnormal lifestyle. Have you never been in love before? Have you never felt so deeply about someone that you feel like your very existence would be threatened if they were not involved in your life? Now imagine that somehow that person simply happened to be of the same sex as you are. Biology doesn't require you to reproduce in order to fall in love. Attraction to the opposite sex, while in the majority, is not a prerequisite to a loving relationship. Love is the most powerful thing in the world when you're in it, and you will defend your rights and those of the one you love with all your heart.