Will a persistent supercurrent decay if we connect it to a remote non-superconducting zone ?

[StanislavDolgopolov]

Will a persistent supercurrent in a superconducting (SC) aluminum ring decay, if we connect the SC aluminum ring to an aluminum wire and the remote end of the wire is located in a separate chamber with T > Tc (or H > Hc)?
This question is more complicated than it seems, most physicists cannot answer it unambiguously and there is no experiments to the issue. Imagine, a persistent supercurrent flows in a SC aluminum ring. Then we connect the SC aluminum ring (without solder) to an aluminum wire, the second end of the wire is in a separate chamber with T > Tc (or H > Hc) and is not SC. The temperature of the SC ring is stable below Tc. Thus the SC ring is directly connected to a non-SC zone where electron pairs dissipate their supercurrent momenta on atom lattice. Will the remote non-SC zone suppress the persistent supercurrent in the SC ring?
Experimental setup to the question is shown in Figure 1 in

https://vixra.org/pdf/2310.0103v1.pdf

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[Joatmon]

As I understand it one of the golden rules of  the universe is that you never get something for nothing. I would therefore think that if anything is happening in the warmer space that takes any energy at all then that energy must come from the aluminium supercooled ring. Your idea seems to be rather like the idea that you could drive an electrical generator from a wheel of a car and feed it back to an electric motor and have transport for nothing. I wonder why you would need a massive aluminium ring - if the idea works then I suppose the mass of the ring is immaterial. Another way of looking at it is to consider whether you have created a perpetual motion machine. 

[exchemist]

9 hours ago, StanislavDolgopolov said:

Will a persistent supercurrent in a superconducting (SC) aluminum ring decay, if we connect the SC aluminum ring to an aluminum wire and the remote end of the wire is located in a separate chamber with T > Tc (or H > Hc)?
This question is more complicated than it seems, most physicists cannot answer it unambiguously and there is no experiments to the issue. Imagine, a persistent supercurrent flows in a SC aluminum ring. Then we connect the SC aluminum ring (without solder) to an aluminum wire, the second end of the wire is in a separate chamber with T > Tc (or H > Hc) and is not SC. The temperature of the SC ring is stable below Tc. Thus the SC ring is directly connected to a non-SC zone where electron pairs dissipate their supercurrent momenta on atom lattice. Will the remote non-SC zone suppress the persistent supercurrent in the SC ring?
Experimental setup to the question is shown in Figure 1 in

https://vixra.org/pdf/2310.0103v1.pdf

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Confess I don’t follow this. Why would any current flow in the wire?

[studiot]

Is there not a thermal counter current from the warm chamber to the cold chamber in the wire ?

[StanislavDolgopolov]

The non-zero supercurrent flows in the ring (and not in the wire). Toward the wire and back to the ring there is a charge drift (like a charge drift of electrons in a metal, but the electrons are paired in the superconductor). The drifts from the ring to the wire and back to the ring are equal, so the total current in the wire is zero. The question is: does the drift disturb the persistent supercurrent in the ring? (the persistent supercurrent was induced in the ring before we connect the ring to the wire).

Edited October 28, 2023 by StanislavDolgopolov

[studiot]

53 minutes ago, StanislavDolgopolov said:

The non-zero supercurrent flows in the ring (and not in the wire). Toward the wire and back to the ring there is a charge drift (like a charge drift of electrons in a metal, but the electrons are paired in the superconductor). The drifts from the ring to the wire and back to the ring are equal, so the total current in the wire is zero. The question is: does the drift disturb the persistent supercurrent in the ring? (the persistent supercurrent was induced in the ring before we connect the ring to the wire).

You haven't answered my question.

 

One end of your wire is at a higher temperature than the other.

These are the conditions for a thermal electric current to flow.

 

Please also note that you are in breach of the requirements for ot posting the material on the forum.

 

However congratulations on the one piece of maths you have noted in your paper .

At least your equation is dimensionally consistent, unlike so many speculations we get here.

[StanislavDolgopolov]

11 hours ago, studiot said:

You haven't answered my question.

 

One end of your wire is at a higher temperature than the other.

These are the conditions for a thermal electric current to flow.

 

Please also note that you are in breach of the requirements for ot posting the material on the forum.

 

However congratulations on the one piece of maths you have noted in your paper .

At least your equation is dimensionally consistent, unlike so many speculations we get here.

The answer to your question - the total current in the wire is zero because the thermal gradient may cause a charge density gradient, so currents in both directions are compensated. Note, we can eliminate the thermal gradient if we create the non-SC zone by a magnetic field H>Hc and not by T>Tc. Then we don't need consider any thermal currents. How about my (initially posed) question: does the supercurrent in the ring vanish due to the compensated charge drifts in the wire?

Edited October 29, 2023 by StanislavDolgopolov

[exchemist]

15 hours ago, StanislavDolgopolov said:

The non-zero supercurrent flows in the ring (and not in the wire). Toward the wire and back to the ring there is a charge drift (like a charge drift of electrons in a metal, but the electrons are paired in the superconductor). The drifts from the ring to the wire and back to the ring are equal, so the total current in the wire is zero. The question is: does the drift disturb the persistent supercurrent in the ring? (the persistent supercurrent was induced in the ring before we connect the ring to the wire).

Don't you need an electric field to produce a drift current?

[StanislavDolgopolov]

35 minutes ago, exchemist said:

Don't you need an electric field to produce a drift current?

We don't you need an electric field, because the charge drift is not aligned into a certain direction, it is rather chaotic like electron motion in metals. 

[exchemist]

56 minutes ago, StanislavDolgopolov said:

We don't you need an electric field, because the charge drift is not aligned into a certain direction, it is rather chaotic like electron motion in metals. 

Then what you are talking about is not a drift but just thermal motion, surely?  

[StanislavDolgopolov]

4 hours ago, exchemist said:

Then what you are talking about is not a drift but just thermal motion, surely?  

The motion of electron pairs is rather a drift than a thermal motion, like the drift of conduction electrons between atoms of crystal lattice, because the pair drift and single electron drift are possible at T=0.

[exchemist]

2 minutes ago, StanislavDolgopolov said:

The motion of electron pairs is rather a drift than a thermal motion, like the drift of conduction electrons between atoms of crystal lattice, because the pair drift and single electron drift are possible at T=0.

I don't understand this. 

[StanislavDolgopolov]

1 hour ago, exchemist said:

I don't understand this. 

This particle drift occurs because the wave length of electron is longer than the distance between atoms of lattice. So every electron itinerates (tunnels) from one site to another. The electron pairs can also tunnel like single electrons.

Edited October 29, 2023 by StanislavDolgopolov

[studiot]

11 hours ago, StanislavDolgopolov said:

The answer to your question - the total current in the wire is zero because the thermal gradient may cause a charge density gradient, so currents in both directions are compensated. Note, we can eliminate the thermal gradient if we create the non-SC zone by a magnetic field H>Hc and not by T>Tc. Then we don't need consider any thermal currents. How about my (initially posed) question: does the supercurrent in the ring vanish due to the compensated charge drifts in the wire?

How is this the answer to my question ?

 

The thermal conductivity of Aluminium is about 237 W M^-1 K^-1 right the way down to zero K so your piece of wire must be drawing (thermal) energy into the ring at a rate given by the usual heat transfer laws. I do not have data for the mobility of phonons in a n Al lattice.

The cirtical temperature for superconductivity is 1.14^o K

 

As drawn I think your wire is a red herring as charge equilibrium will quickly be established and there will not be two way electrical currents in it, otherwise conservation of charge leads to the inevitable conclusion that there will be a build up of charge somewhere.

[StanislavDolgopolov]

11 hours ago, studiot said:

How is this the answer to my question ?

 

The thermal conductivity of Aluminium is about 237 W M^-1 K^-1 right the way down to zero K so your piece of wire must be drawing (thermal) energy into the ring at a rate given by the usual heat transfer laws. I do not have data for the mobility of phonons in a n Al lattice.

The cirtical temperature for superconductivity is 1.14^o K

 

As drawn I think your wire is a red herring as charge equilibrium will quickly be established and there will not be two way electrical currents in it, otherwise conservation of charge leads to the inevitable conclusion that there will be a build up of charge somewhere.

Thank you for the detailed analysis of the experiment. For us is most important that the temperature of the ring remains below Tc. Will the persistent supercurrent (in the ring with T<Tc) disappear due to the remote piece of wire with T>Tc?