Tyrannosaurus in the wetlands

[martillo]

I don't have much background in Biology and I'm not costumed to discuss in the Biology forums (more costumed to the Physics forums) but I think in some related things sometimes.

I would like to discuss in this thread if the tyrannosaurus could be a species actually well adapted to live in a wetland environment. Seems to me that considering their big size and weight, their proportionally big head and their notably big feet they could not only easily survive in that environment but also have great advantages to hunt preys in the water and on the coast of the wetlands like crocodiles do. Their big size, weigh and head would be not a problem while floating in the water with just their nose and eyes over the surface and their strong legs with big feet and big claws would provide them a high ability to make extraordinary jumps from the underwater ground. 

Commonly is presented the tyrannosaurus as a big hunter on dry environments like forests but wetlands seems to me a much more appropriated environment for them. 

Edited October 28, 2023 by martillo

[TheVat]

You don't need a costume to post in Biology.  For physics, an Einstein wig is preferred, but you can also just carry around bongo drums like Richard Feynman.

Is there any evidence for an amphibious T Rex?  

[martillo]

1 minute ago, TheVat said:

Is there any evidence for an amphibious T Rex?  

I don't have evidence. I just find an "amphibious T Rex" much more plausible than a "walking T Rex".

[TheVat]

If their legs are so strong, as you said, then why is a dry land lifestyle implausible?

[martillo]

46 minutes ago, TheVat said:

If their legs are so strong, as you said, then why is a dry land lifestyle implausible?

I just find it less plausible than a wetland lifestyle for the reasons I already posted. Is rather just intuitive for me. The idea to discuss the possibility in this thread is to analyze it with other points of view of other ones with more background in the subject.

 

1 hour ago, TheVat said:

You don't need a costume to post in Biology.  For physics, an Einstein wig is preferred, but you can also just carry around bongo drums like Richard Feynman.

 

Misspelling... I should have said: "... I don't use to discuss in the Biology forums (more used to the Physics forums) but I think in some related things sometimes."

English is not my natural language. In Spanish to be used is said "acostumbrado". Wrongly transferred to English, I apologize...

Edited October 28, 2023 by martillo

[swansont]

1 hour ago, martillo said:

I don't have evidence.

!

Moderator Note

Some kind of evidence or analysis is required

 

[martillo]

9 minutes ago, swansont said:

!

Moderator Note

Some kind of evidence or analysis is required

 

I gave my analysis in the OP:

1 hour ago, martillo said:

Seems to me that considering their big size and weight, their proportionally big head and their notably big feet they could not only easily survive in that environment but also have great advantages to hunt preys in the water and on the coast of the wetlands like crocodiles do. Their big size, weigh and head would be not a problem while floating in the water with just their nose and eyes over the surface and their strong legs with big feet and big claws would provide them a high ability to make extraordinary jumps from the underwater ground. 

Isn't it enough to start a rational discussion?

I'm looking for others' point of view on the subject...

Edited October 28, 2023 by martillo

[studiot]

1 hour ago, martillo said:

Isn't it enough to start a rational discussion?

I'm looking for others' point of view on the subject...

The problem seems to me to be that you have posted this as a speculation.

 

So strictly you are speculating that T REx may have been aquatic or semi aquatic, rather than asking the question

 

Why do we not consider that T rex was aquatic in a  biology or geology or section ?

 

A speculation is a guess by you and a question is a request for information.

 

And as swansont has said, you need evidence to back up your guess (speculation).

[martillo]

44 minutes ago, studiot said:

The problem seems to me to be that you have posted this as a speculation.

 

So strictly you are speculating that T REx may have been aquatic or semi aquatic, rather than asking the question

 

Why do we not consider that T rex was aquatic in a  biology or geology or section ?

 

A speculation is a guess by you and a question is a request for information.

 

The Speculations forum is fine or me on this thread.

 

44 minutes ago, studiot said:

And as swansont has said, you need evidence to back up your guess (speculation).

@swansont asked for some kind of evidence or analysis on the subject:

2 hours ago, swansont said:

!

Moderator Note

Some kind of evidence or analysis is required

 

I have provided my analysis in the first post of the thread:

4 hours ago, martillo said:

Seems to me that considering their big size and weight, their proportionally big head and their notably big feet they could not only easily survive in that environment but also have great advantages to hunt preys in the water and on the coast of the wetlands like crocodiles do. Their big size, weigh and head would be not a problem while floating in the water with just their nose and eyes over the surface and their strong legs with big feet and big claws would provide them a high ability to make extraordinary jumps from the underwater ground. 

Commonly is presented the tyrannosaurus as a big hunter on dry environments like forests but wetlands seems to me a much more appropriated environment for them. 

 

Edited October 28, 2023 by martillo

[swansont]

45 minutes ago, martillo said:

I have provided my analysis at the OP:

That’s not really an analysis. It’s hand-waving.

Bigger head and bigger body means they would need deeper water to do what you’re proposing, something you’ve glossed over. Even deeper than the proportion of size would indicate, because they are not quadrupeds, and their legs do not attach to the body in the same manner. 

You’ve made no detailed investigation of whether their feet are appropriate to the task, and nothing about where their fossils have been found and what that says about this hypothesis, or any other of the many details that would be involved.

[martillo]

1 hour ago, swansont said:

Bigger head and bigger body means they would need deeper water to do what you’re proposing, something you’ve glossed over. Even deeper than the proportion of size would indicate, because they are not quadrupeds, and their legs do not attach to the body in the same manner. 

Well, that is the first good argument in the thread. May be would be possible in some environment just similar but a bit more deeper that common wetlands. What about everglades?

 

1 hour ago, swansont said:

You’ve made no detailed investigation of whether their feet are appropriate to the task, and nothing about where their fossils have been found and what that says about this hypothesis, or any other of the many details that would be involved.

If I would have done all that investigation I would have published an article on an appropriated journal with my work or presented an academic thesis somewhere and not have posted in this forum as something to discuss, don't you think so? I just had an idea to discuss, isn't it appropriated to discuss it in the forum?

 

Edited October 28, 2023 by martillo

[studiot]

3 hours ago, martillo said:

The Speculations forum is fine or me on this thread.

That was a friendly hint I offered.

It would be sad if a possible good topic got closed by a moderator for rules violations, which is after all why they close things.

[Sensei]

Analyzing an animal's appearance tells us what environment it evolved in and what it best fits into.

Wetlands are rather poor in food. See what animals live there now - crocodiles and birds that catch fish. In Africa's wetlands, hippos.

Your theory should show us what kind of animals would eat these T.Rex..

Edited October 29, 2023 by Sensei

[martillo]

9 minutes ago, Sensei said:

Analyzing an animal's appearance tells us what environment it evolved in and what it best fits into.

Wetlands are rather poor in food. See what animals live there now - crocodiles and birds that catch fish. In Africa's wetlands, hippos.

Your theory should show us what kind of animals would eat these T.Rexx..

Not sure but I imagined to be hunters like crocodiles but more powerful. Would eat any possible aquatic animal and any other animal arriving at the coast for drinking water.

Edited October 29, 2023 by martillo

[Sensei]

10 minutes ago, martillo said:

Not sure but I imagined to be hunters like crocodriles but more powerful. Would eat any aquatic being and those arriving at the coast for drinking water...

Crocodiles (due to evolution) have their eyes and noses on top so they can see their prey and breathe while hidden under the surface of the water. Can you see such adaptation in the construction of the T. Rex?

Edited October 29, 2023 by Sensei

[martillo]

19 minutes ago, Sensei said:

Crocodiles (due to evolution) have their eyes and noses on top so they can see their prey and breathe while hidden under the surface of the water. Can you see such adaptation in the construction of the T. Rex?

Quite there. Take a look at the photo (said to be from Jurassic Park film):

Assuming all the body immersed in a deep enough aquatic environment I can see just the top of the head with the nose and the eyes just over the surface. It could look just as a stone in the water to other animals. Crocodiles are also able to see completely immersed in the water. A T Rex could also do that with just the nose outside or retaining respiration for some time.

Edited October 29, 2023 by martillo

[TheVat]

The big muscular tail was designed so it could run easily and swiftly.  On land.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/11/101115131127.htm

 

[swansont]

31 minutes ago, martillo said:

Quite there. Take a look at the photo (said to be from Jurassic Park film):

Assuming all the body immersed in a deep enough aquatic environment I can see just the top of the head with the nose and the eyes just over the surface. It could look just as a stone in the water to other animals. Crocodiles are also able to see completely immersed in the water. A T Rex could also do that with just the nose outside or retaining respiration for some time.

And you can see how deep the water would have to be. No chance to get in close to the shore to nab an animal taking a sip of water. More of the head protruding above the nostrils, too, so not really hiding like a croc.

[TheVat]

https://anatomypubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ar.21290

The expanded M. caudofemoralis of Tyrannosaurus may have evolved as compensation for the animal's immense size. Because the M. caudofemoralis is the primary hind limb retractor, large M. caudofemoralis masses and the resulting contractile force and torque estimates presented here indicate a sizable investment in locomotive muscle among theropods with a range of body sizes and give new evidence in favor of greater athleticism, in terms of overall cursoriality, balance, and turning agility. 

(cursoriality = ability to run)

Edited October 29, 2023 by TheVat

[martillo]

1 hour ago, TheVat said:

The big muscular tail was designed so it could run easily and swiftly.  On land.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/11/101115131127.htm

 

1 hour ago, TheVat said:

https://anatomypubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ar.21290

The expanded M. caudofemoralis of Tyrannosaurus may have evolved as compensation for the animal's immense size. Because the M. caudofemoralis is the primary hind limb retractor, large M. caudofemoralis masses and the resulting contractile force and torque estimates presented here indicate a sizable investment in locomotive muscle among theropods with a range of body sizes and give new evidence in favor of greater athleticism, in terms of overall cursoriality, balance, and turning agility. 

(cursoriality = ability to run)

I took a look at your links.

I don't doubt that the tail would give better running skills to the T Rex mainly while hunting. The question I would ask is if that big muscular tail couldn't have some shape slightly differently from that of the photo, which appears to be rather cylindrical/conical, being more similar to that of crocodiles and more adapted to give a good help in the T Rex displacement in an aquatic environment. 

May be some questions lead us to other questions and so on but this is good, isn't it? the aim is to have a good discussion on the subject.

1 hour ago, swansont said:

More of the head protruding above the nostrils, too, so not really hiding like a croc.

May be the T Rex could have a high ability to retain respiration for a long time enough to be totally immerse and even displace under the water if necessary to catch the prey. Crocodiles do that sometimes.

1 hour ago, swansont said:

And you can see how deep the water would have to be. No chance to get in close to the shore to nab an animal taking a sip of water.

This point is being more difficult for me to refute. May be not every wetland is really an appropriated aquatic environment for the T Rex. As you say a considerable deep aquatic environment would be needed. Consider that the T Rex could stay not just standing up but crouched down waiting for the prey, couldn't some aquatic environment between a wetland and a not too deep lake be more appropriated? I will look for some of possible ones at Earth nowadays but it will took sometime for me...

Edited October 29, 2023 by martillo

[martillo]

5 hours ago, martillo said:

May be not every wetland is really an appropriated aquatic environment for the T Rex. As you say a considerable deep aquatic environment would be needed. Consider that the T Rex could stay not just standing up but crouched down waiting for the prey, couldn't some aquatic environment between a wetland and a not too deep lake be more appropriated? I will look for some of possible ones at Earth nowadays but it will took sometime for me...

T Rex is known to have lived in North America 68-66 millions years ago. Assuming at that times there was a more tropical clima I think a region like current "Pantanal" in Brasil (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantanal) could have been an appropriated habitat for the T Rex. Pantanal is the world's largest tropical wetland area, and the world's largest flooded grasslands. 

There are big areas deep enough for a T Rex immersed in a water with high quantity of aquatic plants which can help to hide the T Rex from its preys. The region is rich in fauna nowadays. I don't see how it couldn't have been the same way those days. As said at Wikipedia:

"Roughly 80% of the Pantanal floodplains are submerged during the rainy seasons, nurturing a biologically diverse collection of aquatic plants and helping to support a dense array of animal species."

"The Pantanal ecosystem is home to some 463 species of birds,^[5] 269 species of fishes, more than 236 species of mammals,^[12] 141 species of reptiles and amphibians, and over 9,000 subspecies of invertebrates."

I think even the crocodiles could have been a prey for the T Rex.

Typical pantanal scenery:

 

 

 

Edited October 29, 2023 by martillo

[joigus]

Oh it doesn't work on so many levels...

What about starting with animals generally died in the strata where they lived. Plus T-Rex is one of the most abundant fossils out there. Swamps and marshes leave abundant organic residues easy to recognise. Not the case.

Unlikely... unless they all went en masse to Utah to embrace Mormonism in a retroactive mass conversion.

[martillo]

The previous post didn't answer properly you @swansont pointing out:

10 hours ago, swansont said:

And you can see how deep the water would have to be. No chance to get in close to the shore to nab an animal taking a sip of water.

This observation comes from me saying that one strategy of the T Rex hunting would be staying hiding underwater waiting for preys at the shore and jumping to catch them. I must admit that due to his enormous size this strategy seems to not be possible for him in the wetland environments as I originally thought. Is a strong cornerstone in my proposition and may be this is one of the main reasons that the T Rex isn't considered so aquatic as I was thinking. I will think more about for if there would be another possibility for the T Rex hunting at the shores. This would be essential in my proposition.

 

23 minutes ago, joigus said:

Oh it doesn't work on so many levels...

What about starting with animals generally died in the strata where they lived. Plus T-Rex is one of the most abundant fossils out there. Swamps and marshes leave abundant organic residues easy to recognise. Not the case.

Unlikely... unless they all went en masse to Utah to embrace Mormonism in a retroactive mass conversion.

Ok, I must admit that my proposition seems inviable in several ways. It was just an idea on my head that I needed to resolve...

Edited October 29, 2023 by martillo

[studiot]

1 hour ago, martillo said:

Ok, I must admit that my proposition seems inviable in several ways. It was just an idea on my head that I needed to resolve...

Now we are discussing perhaps it is worth setting the question in the context of geological history.

The dinosaurs age lasted about 150 million years between 210 mya and 66 mya when there was the a series of cataclysmic events which caused their mass extinction.

This time period spanned from the middle triassic to the late cretaceous, during which there were significantly no ice ages.

Prior to this time the land masses were mostly concentrated on the equator but had begun to spread out towards both poles.

By the middle triassic (the first dinosaurs) these land masses had crossed the tropics, but significant portions of what is now North America, Europe and Asia were still between the equator and the tropics.

 

 

The first T Rexes came somewhere between 90 mya and 75 mya, and they lasted until the extinction event.

 

Now a T Rex is a very large animal that clearly requires a good deal of food.

Good supplies are unlikely to be available in arid to desert conditions.
Note there are no large predators in these conditions today.

So the question of swamp living is not a bad one.

The height of a T Rex is about 3  - 4 metres.  Far greater than that of a modern crock or gator.

This means that shallow water would be unlikely to be an impediment to the creatures.

But as already pointed out, their anatomy is entirely unsuited to deeper waters. Even today you have to go a long way offshore to get to 5 metres depth in most places.

T Rex would definitely not be at home in such conditions.

From the triassic into the jurassic and cretaceous there were extensive areas of shallow warm seas and extensive areas of swampy conditions.

So the dinosaurs were able to spread out over much of the earth's land mass and out competed other forms of animal life.

Competition also further developed them into prey and predators, aerial and land based.

 

[martillo]

51 minutes ago, studiot said:

So the question of swamp living is not a bad one.

51 minutes ago, studiot said:

This means that shallow water would be unlikely to be an impediment to the creatures.

51 minutes ago, studiot said:

From the triassic into the jurassic and cretaceous there were extensive areas of shallow warm seas and extensive areas of swampy conditions.

So the T Rex living in the wetlands could be not a bad idea afterall.

But he definitely could not completely immerse in water for hunting.

I think the main advantage in a T Rex being a semi aquatic or amphibious animal is that he could lean his big and heavy body on the water. Could be possible then to think in a T Rex leaning and sliding on shallow waters hiding by some dense vegetation sometimes?

Edited October 29, 2023 by martillo