White/Gold hydrogen

[swansont]

Interesting. Usually hydrogen isn’t found by itself as a gas, so one needs to use energy to separate it. In such cases it’s a storage medium, not an energy source, and it’s only as “green” as the source of electricity

But hydrogen gas deposits (aka white or gold hydrogen) have been found

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/29/climate/white-hydrogen-fossil-fuels-climate/index.html

“[the probe] indicated the presence of a large reservoir of hydrogen beneath. They ran calculations and estimated the deposit could contain between 6 million and 250 million metric tons of hydrogen”

[studiot]

Thanks, swansont +1

More detail from 'The Oxford Scientist'

 

https://oxsci.org/geologic-hydrogen-the-future-of-green-energy/

 

Quote

Geologic hydrogen: The future of green energy?

 

Edited October 29, 2023 by studiot

[John Cuthber]

1 hour ago, swansont said:

They ran calculations and estimated the deposit could contain between 6 million and 250 million metric tons of hydrogen”

We use something of the order of billions of tons of natural gas each year.
Taking the geometric mean of their estimates means that known hydrogen reserves would run out sometime between Xmas and Easter if we used them at the same rate.

[Ken Fabian]

An alternate future for fossil gas drilling? The future demand for hydrogen is probably overestimated - the current biggest use is oil refining/desulphurisation and that ought to go down and some projections are for reduced overall demand, which may make fossil hydrogen look more reasonable.

But I have serious reservations about Hydrogen outside some hard to decarbonise uses - fertiliser and other chemical feedstock. I would have expected iron and steel but there are other options that avoid the need. If it isn't produced, stored and used on-site the economics are poor and transporting it at large scales is not as easy or cost effective as it sounds . I'm inclined to agree with this -

 

 

Edited October 29, 2023 by Ken Fabian

[swansont]

2 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

We use something of the order of billions of tons of natural gas each year.
Taking the geometric mean of their estimates means that known hydrogen reserves would run out sometime between Xmas and Easter if we used them at the same rate.

They’re just getting started looking for it, and I don’t think this is being proposed as a replacement for natural gas.

This link suggests we produced 74 million tonnes a year

https://climate.mit.edu/explainers/hydrogen

Wikipedia cites a slightly larger number

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_production#:~:text=94 million tonnes of grey,source of greenhouse gas emissions.

 

[John Cuthber]

2 hours ago, swansont said:

I don’t think this is being proposed as a replacement for natural gas.

I do, and it's not just me.
https://www.keele.ac.uk/sustainable-futures/ourchallengethemes/providingcleanenergyreducingcarbonemissions/hydeploy/

We use billions of tons of natural gas each year.
Mining "between 6 million and 250 million metric tons of hydrogen" isn't much use.
 

[exchemist]

On 10/29/2023 at 8:13 PM, Ken Fabian said:

An alternate future for fossil gas drilling? The future demand for hydrogen is probably overestimated - the current biggest use is oil refining/desulphurisation and that ought to go down and some projections are for reduced overall demand, which may make fossil hydrogen look more reasonable.

But I have serious reservations about Hydrogen outside some hard to decarbonise uses - fertiliser and other chemical feedstock. I would have expected iron and steel but there are other options that avoid the need. If it isn't produced, stored and used on-site the economics are poor and transporting it at large scales is not as easy or cost effective as it sounds . I'm inclined to agree with this -

 

 

Where is iron smelting on this chart? 

[npts2020]

On 10/30/2023 at 6:26 PM, exchemist said:

Where is iron smelting on this chart? 

High temperature industrial heat?

[exchemist]

5 hours ago, npts2020 said:

High temperature industrial heat?

Not really. Hydrogen in the context of iron and steel is a reducing agent, for reduction of iron oxide to iron. That's what coke does in today's blast furnaces. It's not just a source of heat.

But I have answered my own question now: I see "Steel" does in fact appear in the category B list on the chart that @Ken Fabian posted.  I must have missed that. 

[mistermack]

Maybe the hydrogen deposits could be used as an energy reservoir, with hydrogen being manufactured and added from renewable sources at times of energy surplus, and drawn when needed. If there is still hydrogen now, the strata can't be very leaky. 

[swansont]

If there’s one reservoir there are likely more, seeing as people hadn’t been looking, and the main issue is whether it’s cost-effective to retrieve it. How much there is is important in that context, and not in relation to how much is used. It’s not like hydrogen in general is a non-renewable resource.

[Endy0816]

Do they say how they think it ended up there?

[exchemist]

2 hours ago, Endy0816 said:

Do they say how they think it ended up there?

Good point. I assume either a natural steam reforming of methane: CH4 + H2O <-> 3H2 + CO (endothermic), in which case one might expect to find carbon monoxide associated, or else from natural cracking of hydrocarbons. But as hydrogen molecules are small, they may migrate away from the source of production, complicating efforts to determine how they were generated.

[mistermack]

On 11/18/2023 at 7:28 AM, Endy0816 said:

Do they say how they think it ended up there?

Some bacteria produce hydrogen, when they feed on carbohydrates. At least, that's how they explain the litre of hydrogen that the best human farters produce in their exhaust gases. I used to think that ignitable farts were down to methane, but it turns out it's more down to hydrogen. You have to have the right bacteria in your gut to produce either, but hydrogen is much more common. Maybe deep down in the soil, bacteria are farting hydrogen. 

[mistermack]

I just read an article talking about hydrogen production. 

The UK and Germany are working on a project agreement to install a pipeline transporting hydrogen from the UK to Germany. Where will the hydrogen come from? We will manufacture it, using the surplus electricity that will be available from our offshore wind turbines. Which is an indicator that energy storage technology is not progressing much. If we could store it, (economically) we could use it ourselves at night, or on non-windy days, instead of pumping it to Germany.