Sustainable and Energy-Efficient Heating System for Remote Villages

[Atabek]

Many parts of North countries tend to have harsh winters. In addition to that in many villages tend to have bad heating systems which would make living in this area hard for the people. You have to design an efficient heating system that will be sustainable for years and will be affordable for the people considering that electricity tend to be more expensive in this places. 

Efficiency- a system that would produce heat the most efficient and provide explanation/evidence

Affordability- total price of the system should be low enough to be done by the government for each village or be purchased by the village instead

Sustainability - explain how this design will be sustainable by explaining  

[swansont]

!

Moderator Note

This a a discussion site, not your blog

 

[studiot]

5 hours ago, Atabek said:

Many parts of North countries tend to have harsh winters. In addition to that in many villages tend to have bad heating systems which would make living in this area hard for the people. You have to design an efficient heating system that will be sustainable for years and will be affordable for the people considering that electricity tend to be more expensive in this places. 

Efficiency- a system that would produce heat the most efficient and provide explanation/evidence

Affordability- total price of the system should be low enough to be done by the government for each village or be purchased by the village instead

Sustainability - explain how this design will be sustainable by explaining  

To me this has the appearance of posting someone's homework.

So tell us what you have thought about so far.

[Sensei]

5 hours ago, Atabek said:

Many parts of North countries tend to have harsh winters. In addition to that in many villages tend to have bad heating systems which would make living in this area hard for the people.

If they didn't like the cold winter, they would move south, wouldn't they?

 

[mistermack]

It wouldn't work for villages, but for remote cities, I favour nuclear, combined with district heating systems and heat pumps. 

Nuclear plants discharge huge amounts of waste heat to the environment, via cooling towers or rivers or seas. If you used that heat for district heating, 

and used heat pumps to extract as much heat as possible, you would have a pretty efficient system. Air source heat pumps are pretty crap, but if you have abundant warm water to power them, heat pumps would work really well. 

Actually, the same principle applies to coal, gas, or oil fired power stations. They all discharge vast amounts of waste heat. You could design something along those lines for a big village in a cold climate. District heating would involve a lot of investment, but would pay off in the long run. 

[Ken Fabian]

On 11/4/2023 at 11:24 PM, mistermack said:

Air source heat pumps are pretty crap, but if you have abundant warm water to power them, heat pumps would work really well. 

Apparently air source heat pumps are available that can work down to minus 15^o C. If I read it right, 100% of the heating at double efficiency, that I take to mean heat delivered for electricity used. Down to about minus 20 (minus 5^o F) has been a stated goal of a joint US Canada R&D program; maybe not always and forever pretty crap.

If I understand correctly, some already commercially available -

https://www.energy.gov/articles/doe-announces-breakthrough-residential-cold-climate-heat-pump-technology

[exchemist]

1 hour ago, Ken Fabian said:

Apparently air source heat pumps are available that can work down to minus 15^o C. If I read it right, 100% of the heating at double efficiency, that I take to mean heat delivered for electricity used. Down to about minus 20 (minus 5^o F) has been a stated goal of a joint US Canada R&D program; maybe not always and forever pretty crap.

If I understand correctly, some already commercially available -

https://www.energy.gov/articles/doe-announces-breakthrough-residential-cold-climate-heat-pump-technology

Yes, the killer at present for heat pumps is their high cost and the cost of adapting existing heating systems to the lower temperature heat they put out. For new housing not such an issue, but in a country like the UK, with a lot of housing stock more than a century old, it is a big barrier to adoption.

[Peterkin]

The biggest problem is not heat source, but construction method. If the building leaks, you have to keep pumping in more and more energy to make it liveable. Remember, too, that even in northerly climates, summer may soon pose its own challenges.

The best solution is to build earth-sheltered homes that are insulated for constant temperature and need very little heating or cooling. Even a high berm is quite helpful.  Next best is to improve existing insulation, with special attention to roof and windows. The electricity should be generated on site, by the most convenient technology: geothermal , which doubles as a heat source, wind turbine , solar ,  hydro , or any combination that suits local conditions. 

Create the optimal indoor conditions and provide a cheap source of power, heat pumps become a useful addition to the overall strategy.

Edited November 24, 2023 by Peterkin

[studiot]

6 hours ago, Ken Fabian said:

Apparently air source heat pumps are available that can work down to minus 15^o C. If I read it right, 100% of the heating at double efficiency, that I take to mean heat delivered for electricity used. Down to about minus 20 (minus 5^o F) has been a stated goal of a joint US Canada R&D program; maybe not always and forever pretty crap.

If I understand correctly, some already commercially available -

https://www.energy.gov/articles/doe-announces-breakthrough-residential-cold-climate-heat-pump-technology

 

5 hours ago, exchemist said:

Yes, the killer at present for heat pumps is their high cost and the cost of adapting existing heating systems to the lower temperature heat they put out. For new housing not such an issue, but in a country like the UK, with a lot of housing stock more than a century old, it is a big barrier to adoption.

 

The heat capacity of dry air only varies in the second or third decimal place over the range -20C to + 20C so with dry air the eficiency is sensiby the same if your operating range is -20 to zero or zero to +20 since cooling either air 10 degrees will yield the same amount of heat.

Obviously you need to chhose the refrigerant carefully to operate over the expected temperature range.

 

The difficulty arises because most air is moist.

Usually the range 0C to +6 is the worst because that is when the air mositure comes out of the air with avengance and condenses or freezes on the heat exchanger seriously impeding the heat  transfer (reducing the heat transfer coefficient) significantly.

Just the conditions we have in Southern England.

Once you operate below zero most of the mositure has left the air and it is very dry.

So near ideal conditions pertain.

 

You then have to contend with wind blown snow.

[TheVat]

I live north of the line in the US where AS heat pumps will fail during cold snaps.  We have days where the HIGH just reaches 5 F., not frequent, but often enough that an AS heat pump system requires backup resistance coils.  For these latitudes and farther north, it would be good if possible to pursue more innovation in not just GSHPs, but also ways to make resistance heat more efficient (e.g. zone heating).

And there's that third rail in any discussion....smaller houses.  

[Peterkin]

5 hours ago, studiot said:

You then have to contend with wind blown snow.

We put up a plywood barrier about for winter and take it down in summer.

[Ken Fabian]

It is not the kind of climate I am familiar with but it does sound like insulation is where to start, irrespective of the heating method. Followed by draft proofing, more insulation, judicious use of thermal masses and more insulation.

The cold weather air source heat pumps at least appear relatively easy to fit to existing homes, compared to ground source. We haven't heard the last word - I expect they will get even better. The cost advantage is in the running - but where the initial costs are high we will continue to see options that are less cost effective - sometimes a lot more expensive over the longer term - being preferred. Not only do wealthier people get the cheaper option because they can afford the up front costs they probably get access to lower interest rate loans to pay it off if they choose to go that way.

As an aside we had someone from Austria, Europe visit who has been living in Australia and she spoke about telling her mother back home that she was staying in sub-tropical Queensland in Australia and wearing a jacket inside because it was cold. Because the homes, especially older ones have lots of windows that spend a lot of time open and can be drafty as well, for air flow in hot conditions and there is not much insulation and probably no dedicated heating system at all apart from the reverse cycle air conditioner, that is primarily for cooling and likely doesn't include bedrooms at all. Her family's home was well sealed, triple glazed and so on - and very rarely were the windows left open.

[mistermack]

16 hours ago, Ken Fabian said:

Apparently air source heat pumps are available that can work down to minus 15^o C. If I read it right, 100% of the heating at double efficiency,

Any link for that? The reports I've read indicate that the colder it gets, the less efficient they become. Double efficiency doesn't really mean much, unless you define what that means, and how it compares on price to other sources of heating. Countries like Norway can cope with it, with a small population, loads of Hydro power and big stocks of oil and gas. They can keep the price of electricity low, so air-source heat pumps are not prohibitively expensive to run. 

If 1kw of electricity is generating 2kw of heat, that's not great, if electricity is three times the price of gas, per unit heat. And of course, it's self defeating if you have to spend tens of thousands to adapt the house to make it work. 

So for a country with high electricity prices, and older housing stock, they are a waste of space. There is also a noise problem. For city houses, close together, they will all be generating a hum, which can be irritating to neighbours. On a still night in winter, with thousands of houses generating a hum, it might be a serious problem. 

[Ken Fabian]

@mistermack - linked in my first post -

Quote

"DOE launched the CCHP Technology Challenge in 2021to accelerate development and commercialization of next-generation heat pumps by supporting American innovation and manufacturing. Lennox International, headquartered in Richardson, Texas, developed the first prototype that achieved the Technology Challenge’s standards about a year ahead of schedule. The prototype delivers 100% heating at 5°F at double the efficiency, and 70% to 80% heating at -5°F and -10°F. DOE’s Oak Ridge National Laboratory validated the performance and efficiency of Lennox’s prototype."

The manufacturer has cold weather air source heat pumps in production - https://www.lennox.com/media-room/news/lennox-industries-introduces-new-cold-climate-heat-pump-focused-on-accelerating-environmental-sustainability

Alternatives to gas are necessary, for well known reasons;  gas is cheaper because the externalities are not counted but those costs don't go away, they are passed on. Disproportionately onto people in warmer climates who didn't burn that much gas.

Edited November 25, 2023 by Ken Fabian

[studiot]

12 minutes ago, Ken Fabian said:

@mistermack - linked in my first post -

"DOE launched the CCHP Technology Challenge in 2021to accelerate development and commercialization of next-generation heat pumps by supporting American innovation and manufacturing. Lennox International, headquartered in Richardson, Texas, developed the first prototype that achieved the Technology Challenge’s standards about a year ahead of schedule. The prototype delivers 100% heating at 5°F at double the efficiency, and 70% to 80% heating at -5°F and -10°F. DOE’s Oak Ridge National Laboratory validated the performance and efficiency of Lennox’s prototype."

The manufacturer has cold weather air source heat pumps in production - https://www.lennox.com/media-room/news/lennox-industries-introduces-new-cold-climate-heat-pump-focused-on-accelerating-environmental-sustainability

Alternatives to gas are necessary, for well known reasons;  gas is cheaper because the externalities are not counted but those costs don't go away, they are passed on. Disproportionately onto people in warmer climates who didn't burn that much gas.

A good response. +1

[Sensei]

On 11/24/2023 at 6:24 PM, TheVat said:

I live north of the line in the US where AS heat pumps will fail during cold snaps.  We have days where the HIGH just reaches 5 F., not frequent, but often enough that an AS heat pump system requires backup resistance coils.  For these latitudes and farther north, it would be good if possible to pursue more innovation in not just GSHPs, but also ways to make resistance heat more efficient (e.g. zone heating).

And there's that third rail in any discussion....smaller houses.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_gradient

"temperature rises in about 25–30 °C/km (72–87 °F/mi) of depth near the surface in most of the world."

Reduce the cost of drilling, and everyone can benefit from the heat..

 

[studiot]

2 hours ago, Sensei said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_gradient

"temperature rises in about 25–30 °C/km (72–87 °F/mi) of depth near the surface in most of the world."

Reduce the cost of drilling, and everyone can benefit from the heat..

 

What do the laws of Thermodynamics have to say about this ?

 

Say you have a cubic metre of water at 5^oC and you pump it down 1km.

1) How long will it have to stay there bring it up to 30^oC?

2) Once it is up to temperature you pump it back up again. How much energy will this take ?

3) Once it is back to the surface and (ignoting losses) at 30^oC, how much heat can you extract from it ?

[Ken Fabian]

2 hours ago, Sensei said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_gradient

"temperature rises in about 25–30 °C/km (72–87 °F/mi) of depth near the surface in most of the world."

Reduce the cost of drilling, and everyone can benefit from the heat..

 

Geothermal power stations outside places with hydrothermal resources (ie local volcanism) to tap into are not being built much and appear to rely on hot rock that is nearer the surface. I think they do have significant advantages - can follow load as well as make power continuously. If costs can be reduced - and if some of the price distortion for fossil fuels get eliminated.

But I think we may get more benefit from reducing costs for drilling boreholes for ground source heat pumps. These usually don't need to go much more than 100m and offer the potential for interseasonal energy storage, ie pumping heat down them during Summer for use in Winter. Even more appropriate for large buildings and district heating systems than for individual homes. I expect borehole heat pumps to be more energy efficient than cold weather air source heat pumps - and air source to be more efficient than resistance heating or gas or oil. But in the presence of reliable electricity the air sourced heat pumps may be a cost effective option.

Edited November 28, 2023 by Ken Fabian

[studiot]

1 hour ago, Ken Fabian said:

Geothermal power stations outside places with hydrothermal resources (ie local volcanism) to tap into are not being built much and appear to rely on hot rock that is nearer the surface. I think they do have significant advantages - can follow load as well as make power continuously. If costs can be reduced - and if some of the price distortion for fossil fuels get eliminated.

But I think we may get more benefit from reducing costs for drilling boreholes for ground source heat pumps. These usually don't need to go much more than 100m and offer the potential for interseasonal energy storage, ie pumping heat down them during Summer for use in Winter. Even more appropriate for large buildings and district heating systems than for individual homes. I expect borehole heat pumps to be more energy efficient than cold weather air source heat pumps - and air source to be more efficient than resistance heating or gas or oil. But in the presence of reliable electricity the air sourced heat pumps may be a cost effective option.

Another well thought out, well balanced post. +1

[mistermack]

If you have a deep hole drilled for deep geothermal energy, the info and expertise is already there about how quick heat will flow etc. as it's all being done already at shallower sites, where you have hot rocks near the surface. 

You don't have to pump water down, and then lift it back up. It should be in balance, the weight of water going down balancing the water coming up. So you are basically pumping to overcome the friction. 

On drilling costs, it's always been an expensive business. When drilling for oil, the prospect of a giant payoff is what pays the bills. Extracting heat isn't in the same class as an oil strike at all, that's why there's not much deep drilling for heat as yet. 

As you go down deeper, the pressures in the soil and rocks get enormous and it's all pressing on the sides of your bore holes, trying to cave them in, so the deeper you go, the stronger the lining needed for the hole. In oil wells, I think they use a concrete sleeve. 

At the moment, the economics are dicey but not completely forbidding in areas where there are very hot rocks relatively close to the surface, like in Cornwall where they are two or three miles deep. This is going ahead, but even the people pushing it are acknowledging that the eventual economics are an unknown quantity, so drilling deeper is probably not really on the cards as yet. Cornwall is lowly populated, so there's not much of a market for warm water, but if you could find shallow hot rocks near a big city, (like Southampton) then the potential is there for district heating using the waste water. The combination of a supply of warm water, and household heat pumps is then a very economic option. 

 Drilling starts to tap geothermal power from Cornwall's hot rocks | Energy industry | The Guardian 

I believe that you can generate electricity from low-level warm water, if you also have access to lots of cold water close by. Cornwall fits the bill for that, I'm surprised that they aren't planning that sort of project at the same time. 

Energy-efficient engine turns waste hot water into electricity | New Scientist 

Makai’s Ocean Thermal Energy Conversion (OTEC) Power Plant, Hawaii - Power Technology (power-technology.com) 

The economics might be a bit marginal for such schemes, but I'm surprised that they are not being subsidised, as they have the capability to supply year-round energy that's not relying on the wind blowing or the sun shining, so it's much more valuable in that sense than wind-farm energy or solar. 

 

 

 

 

[AIkonoklazt]

stuck your post into an LLM and it spat back the following paragraph, which I wouldn't trust since the solution sounds expensive... But hey I tried just as hard as you did!
 

Quote

To design an efficient, affordable, and sustainable heating system for villages in North countries with harsh winters and poor heating systems, a ground source heat pump (GSHP) would be a suitable choice. GSHPs offer efficient operation, zero emissions, and can be cost-effective in the long run. Here's how this design meets the specified criteria: Efficiency:
According to NY Engineers, ground source heat pumps have long represented the gold standard for zero-carbon heating systems in cold climates

1

. These systems use electricity to harness energy from the surrounding ground and pump that energy indoors in the form of heat. They can achieve efficiencies three to six times higher than conventional heating technologies, making them highly efficient, even in extreme cold conditions

2

. Affordability:
While the initial cost of installing a ground source heat pump may be higher than traditional heating systems, they can be more cost-effective in the long term. According to RMI, as electric utilities continue to decarbonize by adding renewable energy sources to their grids, heat pumps have gained popularity as an effective, low-carbon heating solution

2

. Additionally, the government could provide subsidies or financial assistance to make the installation more affordable for villages. Sustainability:
Ground source heat pumps are a sustainable heating solution because they produce zero emissions and can harness renewable energy from the ground. According to GreenBuildingAdvisor, ground source heat pumps are a good choice for cold climates and can be designed to provide high performance in snow country

5

. Additionally, the long lifespan of ground source heat pumps makes them a sustainable investment for villages, as they can provide reliable heating for many years. In conclusion, a ground source heat pump heating system would be an efficient, affordable, and sustainable choice for villages in North countries with harsh winters and poor heating systems. It can provide reliable heating, reduce emissions, and be cost-effective in the long run, making it a suitable option for government or village installation.

 

[studiot]

8 hours ago, AIkonoklazt said:

stuck your post into an LLM and it spat back the following paragraph, which I wouldn't trust since the solution sounds expensive... But hey I tried just as hard as you did!
 

 

I don't see how your post deserved a negative vote so I have reversed it.
It was an unbiased factual report.

 

Thank you for reporting the AI response, which seems to contain only generalities gleaned from advertising.

I would trust it as far as a vehicle from a used car saleman.

[TheVat]

Seems like one of the cost factors with GSHPs in very cold places will be digging through frozen layers of soil and then having tubing robust enough to handle instability in the ground from expansion/contraction.  

[AIkonoklazt]

2 hours ago, studiot said:

I don't see how your post deserved a negative vote so I have reversed it.
It was an unbiased factual report.

 

Thank you for reporting the AI response, which seems to contain only generalities gleaned from advertising.

I would trust it as far as a vehicle from a used car saleman.

Yeah, the result was offering "first world solutions."

I wonder if LLM developers use PageRank-like algorithms to prioritize training data, because commercial links should have higher manufactured SEO.