Red Queen's Race.

[renee]

The theory of The Red Queen's Race states that both prey and predator evolve at the same rate, and in doing so, stay the same ratio-wise, because as one becomes steadily harder to catch, the other becomes the better hunter. I was wondering if there was an experiment that could be created to test this theory in light of the way bacteria adapts in human or animal cells and if the theory applies to that as well. Any suggestions? (I know that in my lifetime, I probably couldn't test evolution- but would adaptation be synonymous enough with evolution to the extent that I could test the rates of their adaptation and see how it compares?)

[smommer]

Good Question

 

I once wrote a simulation that used genetic algorithms to simulate web building behaviour in spiders, using a webs ability to catch randomly generated flies as a fitness function. Ive always been interested in extending the algorithm further to give the flies a fighting chance to adapt and get an arms race going. Of course simulations of this nature are limited as only a limited number of environmental and biological factors can be simulated with the computing power we have available. It may be easier to simulate bacteria (i havent tried).

[renee]

It might be, but what bacteria would I use? Two "enemy" bacteria that are readily available... I can't think of any, but that's because I am not familiar with them. Any suggestions?

[smommer]

It might be, but what bacteria would I use? Two "enemy" bacteria that are readily available... I can't think of any, but that's because I am not familiar with them. Any suggestions?

 

Im afraid im not really familiar with bacteria either so cant really offer any suggestions on that front. Would the bacteria have to be "enemy bacteria"? Could this theory not be simulated at least in part by pitting a bacteria like representation against the elements of its environment

 

I was wondering if there was an experiment that could be created to test this theory in light of the way bacteria adapts in human or animal cells and if the theory applies to that as well.

 

when i was working on spider behaviour i didnt really treat spiders and flies as "enemies" competing with each other, more viewed the flies as an element of the spiders environment. Sorry i cant offer any suggestions on what behavioural or environmental traits to incorporate into a possible simulation, may take a bit of research. Anyone any ideas?

[renee]

But the arms race to become the better species is between the two animals, not an element vs. the enviroment. It could work that way, you're right, but that is not the theory in text.

[FreeThinker]

I think it would be very interesting to conduct a "predator" vs. "pray" experiment; in fact I have been considering it myself. However, I also can not decided the test subjects.

 

Which animals (besides bacteria) have the shortest generation span?

 

I was thinking about placing fruit flies (a lot of them) into an environment with spiders. I am not really sure if this will produce any worth while mutations. But, I figure, the spider will eat the least adapted (slowest, insufficient sight…) flies. So if I could even differentiate between the "fit" and non "fit" flies, I would observe evolution.

 

Since mutations happen randomly it is in theory possible to observe some mutations in the flies. My goal would be to get some valuable mutations. Don’t know if this is realistic, but I wouldn’t mind trying it anyways.

 

It would be good to use a species of spider with a short generation span. Anyone have any suggestions for possible test subjects?

[Skye]

I think it would be very interesting to conduct a "predator" vs. "pray" experiment

The Romans tried that, and the lions won

[renee]

It would be good to use a species of spider with a short generation span. Anyone have any suggestions for possible test subjects?

 

No idea. Info like that would help me, too.

[smommer]

I attempted to simulate Araneus Diadematus. I also think Krink used this species to try and isolate the mathematical rules spiders apply during web synthesis in his netspinner project http://www.brics.dk/~krink/netSpinner/ .

 

I used this type of spider as they were local to me and so i could observe them easily in the garden when they were creating webs. Their lifespan i believe is about 2 years. I may be wrong and i cant find any literature to back this claim up, i think i was told by my supervisor at the time. below is a quote from http://www.zoo.org/educate/fact_sheets/spiders/spiders.html

 

Most spiders live for one year; a smaller number live two years or less than a year, and a few house spider species may live several years. However, individuals of some tarantula species may live more than 20 years. For most species of spiders, males usually have shorter life spans than females.

 

What sort of time frame are you guys thinking you could observe evolution in an empirical experiment and what would you define as observed adaptation? I think this would be tricky to do in a realistic time frame. Simulation speeds things up but has its own problems and i dont think it can really prove any hypothesis, as the simulation would have to be near perfect.