Mind

[Boltzmannbrain]

 

 

The mind being an immaterial property of the brain might not be as woo as it sounds.  I personally think this is where the evidence and lack of evidence is pointing to.  It also explains philosophical zombies.

 

If there were two identical people each living on identical planets doing identical things and one had a mind and the other didn't; the one that doesn't is the "zombie".  We would never know which has the mind, even by looking at every particle in both people.  The physical makeup is identical.  The mind would not have any autonomy in the person versus the zombie.  


Then you may say, well maybe in reality there is something physically different about life with minds versus life without minds.  So assume we narrow it down to some biochemical process that every living thing with a mind has.

But now what?  We still haven't detected the mind.  There would still be the mind-body problem simply because the subjective consciousness can experience and have its physical properties.  This subjective consciousness is a property in of itself.  This makes the mind something entirely different from physical, but a immaterial property of the physical nonetheless. 


The mind would simply be something directly correlated with what the chemical process does.  The mind couldn't escape or have any autonomy.  It is said that the mind would be like smoke coming out of a train, or a passenger taking ride in a boat.

Edited December 19, 2023 by Boltzmannbrain

[DrmDoc]

6 hours ago, Luc Turpin said:

We all agree on supernaturalism.

I also partially agree with your untestable comment. However, I venture that it is at the limit of materiality that, if supernaturalism existed, one might find or not clues about it. For example, and if credible, terminal lucidity at death's door evoked in one of my earlier post is troubling for a materialist like me. How can someone have lucid thinking with a brain that is essentially broken? What is the mechanism explaining how this temporary reversal of fate occurs without a functional brain?

Also, for a materialist like me, it would be more comforting that we could find a place in the brain for consciousness, that we could see that it is not in varying degrees in all living things, and that we understood how brain creates mind. Then, there would not be any lingering doubts. Without these three unconfirmed statements of facts, we are left with possibilities of having to look elsewhere for answers. 

And I will follow evidence wherever it lead's me, even if I have to do so grudgingly

Even a dying ember can reignite as it burns through the last of its fuel.  As a dying sun can increase in light emissions (nova) when it burns throught its remaining fuel, our brain can experience an energetic surge of connectivity as its neural components near the end of functionality.  For our brain, increased lucidity as it nears death infers increased functionality, which infers increased neural connectivity.  

We find explanations for terminal lucidity, when we consider what metabolic activities are more acutely engaged as our brain pursues its functional imperative amid its dying moments.  In those moments, the functional imperative of our brain is not to produce lucidity, consciousness, or mind.  Our brain's functional imperative is to maintain its metabolic stability (homeostasis), which is what it has been our entire life. As our brain dies, increased functionality and lucidity of mind is merely a byproduct of its metabolic imperative, which is to maintain functional stability against the degradation of its dying components.

[Luc Turpin]

14 hours ago, Boltzmannbrain said:

 

 

The mind being an immaterial property of the brain might not be as woo as it sounds.  I personally think this is where the evidence and lack of evidence is pointing to.  It also explains philosophical zombies.

 

If there were two identical people each living on identical planets doing identical things and one had a mind and the other didn't; the one that doesn't is the "zombie".  We would never know which has the mind, even by looking at every particle in both people.  The physical makeup is identical.  The mind would not have any autonomy in the person versus the zombie.  


Then you may say, well maybe in reality there is something physically different about life with minds versus life without minds.  So assume we narrow it down to some biochemical process that every living thing with a mind has.

But now what?  We still haven't detected the mind.  There would still be the mind-body problem simply because the subjective consciousness can experience and have its physical properties.  This subjective consciousness is a property in of itself.  This makes the mind something entirely different from physical, but a immaterial property of the physical nonetheless. 


The mind would simply be something directly correlated with what the chemical process does.  The mind couldn't escape or have any autonomy.  It is said that the mind would be like smoke coming out of a train, or a passenger taking ride in a boat.

Tell me more about 'evidence and lack of evidence pointing to'! Are you talking about the points that I raised, or you have others?

'This subjective conscousness is a property in of itself', but it needs the physical to express itself! Right? So its not onto itself! Right? Or are you saying that its does not need the physical to express itself?

[Luc Turpin]

11 hours ago, DrmDoc said:

Even a dying ember can reignite as it burns through the last of its fuel.  As a dying sun can increase in light emissions (nova) when it burns throught its remaining fuel, our brain can experience an energetic surge of connectivity as its neural components near the end of functionality.  For our brain, increased lucidity as it nears death infers increased functionality, which infers increased neural connectivity.  

We find explanations for terminal lucidity, when we consider what metabolic activities are more acutely engaged as our brain pursues its functional imperative amid its dying moments.  In those moments, the functional imperative of our brain is not to produce lucidity, consciousness, or mind.  Our brain's functional imperative is to maintain its metabolic stability (homeostasis), which is what it has been our entire life. As our brain dies, increased functionality and lucidity of mind is merely a byproduct of its metabolic imperative, which is to maintain functional stability against the degradation of its dying components.

So, you are saying that an organism in a final bid to save itself, fires off a last burst of energy to maintain metabolic stability. This is a valid hypothesis that I cannot validate or invalidate at this time.  However, intuitively it I am leaning towards it being possibly invalid. First, most but not all cases of terminal lucidity are reported in Alzheimer’s patients. Alzheimer's disease is characterized by a breakdown of metabolism. It is a metabolic disease https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5368131/). So, how would the organism mount a last metabolic surge in a deficient metabolic system. Second, even if it could mount such a surge, how would that result in lucidity in a brain that is physically ravaged by the disease. Some patients experiencing terminal lucidity recover all of their functions for a while. Also, terminal lucidity occurs in two types: one week before death or hours before death (lost the reference on this one). This makes it a bit more difficult to think that it is mounting a last-ditch effort a week before death. Contrarily, maybe its a burst of coordinated electrical activity that is at the basis of terminal lucidity, for which its implications would be that these bursts of electrical energy can occur without a functional physical brain and nonetheless create lucidity. It might also be worth mentioning that the brain is a complex system and that maximally disturbed systems suddenly change state! Is it that that we are seeing in terminal lucidity? More questions than answers here, but a great discussion that may end up with partial answers as we move along.

[Boltzmannbrain]

5 hours ago, Luc Turpin said:

Tell me more about 'evidence and lack of evidence pointing to'! Are you talking about the points that I raised, or you have others?

The evidence points to the consciousness constrained to being just a property of the brain.  We know this because of the correlations found so far between mind and brain.  And there is practically no evidence (that I am aware of) suggesting otherwise.

Quote

'This subjective conscousness is a property in of itself', but it needs the physical to express itself! Right? So its not onto itself! Right? Or are you saying that its does not need the physical to express itself?

My post was defending the idea that the mind is an immaterial property of the brain and not a physical one.  I was reading your discussion with the other poster, and it seemed you both thought an immaterial mind was a bad idea.  This is why I made my post.

To answer your question, no, I definitely was not saying that the mind has the ability to do otherwise than what the brain does.  So far, there only seems to be a one-to-one correlation between mind and body. 

My personal opinion is that I am still not sure, but I am leaning towards epiphenomenalism (mind-body being fully correlated).  But I don't think we know enough for me to make a hard claim yet. 

[Luc Turpin]

1 hour ago, Boltzmannbrain said:

The evidence points to the consciousness constrained to being just a property of the brain.  We know this because of the correlations found so far between mind and brain.  And there is practically no evidence (that I am aware of) suggesting otherwise.

My post was defending the idea that the mind is an immaterial property of the brain and not a physical one.  I was reading your discussion with the other poster, and it seemed you both thought an immaterial mind was a bad idea.  This is why I made my post.

To answer your question, no, I definitely was not saying that the mind has the ability to do otherwise than what the brain does.  So far, there only seems to be a one-to-one correlation between mind and body. 

My personal opinion is that I am still not sure, but I am leaning towards epiphenomenalism (mind-body being fully correlated).  But I don't think we know enough for me to make a hard claim yet. 

Thank for responding!

I believe that there is more than practically no evidence suggesting immateriality of mind; however, neither substantial enough nor convincing enough for a paradigm shift. I tend to concur with you that mind is an immaterial property of the brain. Evidence so far portrays it as mind being produced by brain; how it does so is unresolved. Immaterial mind on its own is not a bad idea; just unsubstantiated. Finally, I am an "epiphenomenalist", but doubt is creeping in a bit because of some evidence (e.g. 55 references provided in initial post of this thread and summary provided in recent post of an article titled "An evidence-based critical review of the mind-brain identity theory'). As stated before, there is no discovered center for mind in brain, some form of mind appears to be everywhere in nature and we still do not know how brain creates mind. This situation opens up possibilities that would not be there otherwise. Lastly, as I said before, I will go where the evidence goes, and agree with you that the jury is still out on this matter.

[iNow]

35 minutes ago, Luc Turpin said:

As stated before, there is no discovered center for mind [consciousness] in brain

And yet thousands of times per day, every single day, we intentionally make people unconscious by targeting specific parts of it prior to surgery. 

[Luc Turpin]

1 hour ago, iNow said:

And yet thousands of times per day, every single day, we intentionally make people unconscious by targeting specific parts of it prior to surgery. 

There is still debate as to how general anesthesia works, but it seems to affect multiple regions of the brain down to individual neurons and the sedative floods the entire brain, including the brain stem:

1- "Anesthetic drugs cause brain circuits to change their oscillation patterns in particular ways, thereby preventing neurons in differnt brain regions from communicating with each other". 

https://www.google.com/search?q=surgery+anesthesia+effect+on+brain&rlz=1C1CHBF_enCA997CA997&oq=surgery+anesthesia+effect+on+brain&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIICAEQABgWGB4yDQgCEAAYhgMYgAQYigUyDQgDEAAYhgMYgAQYigUyDQgEEAAYhgMYgAQYigUyDQgFEAAYhgMYgAQYigXSAQkxNDExMWoxajeoAgCwAgA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

 

Brain areas that influence general anesthesia - PubMed nlm.nih.gov

 

2- 'In a study published in April in the online journal eLife, Brown’s team used electrodes to study the neurons deep inside the brains of monkeys undergoing anesthesia. The work shows, for the first time, how individual neurons in multiple regions of the brain respond as they become flooded with the sedative, and that their impulses slow by 90 to 95 percent'. 

 

This Is Your Brain Under Anesthesia wired.com

 

3- 'We suggest that hypnosis during general anesthesia may result from disrupting the wake-active neuronal activities in multiple areas'....

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25172271/

4- This document reviews the literature on local brain manipulation of general anesthesia in animals, focusing on behavioral and electrographic effects related to hypnosis or loss of consciousness. Local inactivation or lesion of wake-active areas, such as locus coeruleus, dorsal raphe, pedunculopontine tegmental nucleus, perifornical area, tuberomammillary nucleus, ventral tegmental area and basal forebrain, enhanced general anesthesia. Anesthesia enhancement was shown as a delayed emergence (recovery of righting reflex) from anesthesia or a decrease in the minimal alveolar concentration that induced loss of righting. Local activation of various wake-active areas, including pontis oralis and centromedial thalamus, promoted behavioral or electrographic arousal during maintained anesthesia and facilitated emergence. Lesion of the sleep-active ventrolateral preoptic area resulted in increased wakefulness and decreased isoflurane sensitivity, but only for 6 days after lesion. Inactivation of any structure within limbic circuits involving the medial septum, hippocampus, nucleus accumbens, ventral pallidum, and ventral tegmental area, amygdala, entorhinal and piriform cortex delayed emergence from anesthesia, and often reduced anesthetic-induced behavioral excitation. In summary, the concept that anesthesia works on the sleep-wake system has received strong support from studies that inactivated/lesioned or activated wake-active areas, and weak support from studies that lesioned sleep-active areas. In addition to the conventional wake-sleep areas, limbic structures such as the medial septum, hippocampus and prefrontal cortex are also involved in the behavioral response to general anesthesia. We suggest that hypnosis during general anesthesia may result from disrupting the wake-active neuronal activities in multiple areas and suppressing an atropine-resistant cortical activation associated with movements.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25172271/

Some even stay awake during anesthesia https://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/05/17/general.anesthesia/index.html

[DrmDoc]

10 hours ago, Luc Turpin said:

So, you are saying that an organism in a final bid to save itself, fires off a last burst of energy to maintain metabolic stability. This is a valid hypothesis that I cannot validate or invalidate at this time.  However, intuitively it I am leaning towards it being possibly invalid. First, most but not all cases of terminal lucidity are reported in Alzheimer’s patients. Alzheimer's disease is characterized by a breakdown of metabolism. It is a metabolic disease https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5368131/). So, how would the organism mount a last metabolic surge in a deficient metabolic system. Second, even if it could mount such a surge, how would that result in lucidity in a brain that is physically ravaged by the disease. Some patients experiencing terminal lucidity recover all of their functions for a while. Also, terminal lucidity occurs in two types: one week before death or hours before death (lost the reference on this one). This makes it a bit more difficult to think that it is mounting a last-ditch effort a week before death. Contrarily, maybe its a burst of coordinated electrical activity that is at the basis of terminal lucidity, for which its implications would be that these bursts of electrical energy can occur without a functional physical brain and nonetheless create lucidity. It might also be worth mentioning that the brain is a complex system and that maximally disturbed systems suddenly change state! Is it that that we are seeing in terminal lucidity? More questions than answers here, but a great discussion that may end up with partial answers as we move along.

The article you've cited does not specifically reference the breakdown of a Alzheimer's brain's entire metabolic processes, but focuses on an aspect of that process shown by "...reduced insulin signal transductions in the brain".  The article reports that "...intranasal injection of insulin has been found to have an effect on AD [alzheimer's disease] treatment." As evidenced that the a dying brain may not have the capacity to re-energize its connectivity, your citation isn't a very good one because the "intranasal" insulin bypass suggests even a metabolically challenged brain can be re-energized through alternate nutrient enriched pathways.  This intranasal treatment suggests that Alzheimer's is not as much about the brain's neuroelectrical activity as it may be about the brain's access to the nutrients generating that activity.  A damaged, terminal brain may experience moments of functional lucidity by the very nature of brain plasticity; wherein, the damaged brain may fine or build tenuous, temporary pathways to the resource it needs to maintain some brief peak of functional stability.

As a point of clarity, my use of brain in our discussions references the organ itself.  My use of consciousness merely references awareness, which for me describes the basic perception of experience.  My view of mind is not synonymous with that of consciousness as mind, in my view, necessitates a thought process while consciousness does not--mind and consciousness are not the same property of brain function.

[iNow]

Most of his citations aren’t good ones TBH

[Luc Turpin]

1 hour ago, DrmDoc said:

The article you've cited does not specifically reference the breakdown of a Alzheimer's brain's entire metabolic processes, but focuses on an aspect of that process shown by "...reduced insulin signal transductions in the brain".  The article reports that "...intranasal injection of insulin has been found to have an effect on AD [alzheimer's disease] treatment." As evidenced that the a dying brain may not have the capacity to re-energize its connectivity, your citation isn't a very good one because the "intranasal" insulin bypass suggests even a metabolically challenged brain can be re-energized through alternate nutrient enriched pathways.  This intranasal treatment suggests that Alzheimer's is not as much about the brain's neuroelectrical activity as it may be about the brain's access to the nutrients generating that activity.  A damaged, terminal brain may experience moments of functional lucidity by the very nature of brain plasticity; wherein, the damaged brain may fine or build tenuous, temporary pathways to the resource it needs to maintain some brief peak of functional stability.

As a point of clarity, my use of brain in our discussions references the organ itself.  My use of consciousness merely references awareness, which for me describes the basic perception of experience.  My view of mind is not synonymous with that of consciousness as mind, in my view, necessitates a thought process while consciousness does not--mind and consciousness are not the same property of brain function.

I will have a second look at the reference. Also, point well taken on the definition of terms. And, interesting comment on brain plasticity. I will also look into it.

 

5 minutes ago, iNow said:

Most of his citations aren’t good ones TBH

Will try and find others.

[iNow]

51 minutes ago, Luc Turpin said:

Will try and find others.

Part of the problem here is you’re seemingly looking for articles that support your existing conclusions. 

 

[Luc Turpin]

10 hours ago, DrmDoc said:

The article you've cited does not specifically reference the breakdown of a Alzheimer's brain's entire metabolic processes, but focuses on an aspect of that process shown by "...reduced insulin signal transductions in the brain".  The article reports that "...intranasal injection of insulin has been found to have an effect on AD [alzheimer's disease] treatment." As evidenced that the a dying brain may not have the capacity to re-energize its connectivity, your citation isn't a very good one because the "intranasal" insulin bypass suggests even a metabolically challenged brain can be re-energized through alternate nutrient enriched pathways.  This intranasal treatment suggests that Alzheimer's is not as much about the brain's neuroelectrical activity as it may be about the brain's access to the nutrients generating that activity.  A damaged, terminal brain may experience moments of functional lucidity by the very nature of brain plasticity; wherein, the damaged brain may fine or build tenuous, temporary pathways to the resource it needs to maintain some brief peak of functional stability.

As a point of clarity, my use of brain in our discussions references the organ itself.  My use of consciousness merely references awareness, which for me describes the basic perception of experience.  My view of mind is not synonymous with that of consciousness as mind, in my view, necessitates a thought process while consciousness does not--mind and consciousness are not the same property of brain function.

I appreciate greatly our discussion. 

This article says that (AD) is a major subtype of neurodegenerative dementia caused by long-term interactions and accumulation of multiple adverse factors, accompanied by dysregulation of numerous intracellular signaling and molecular pathways in the brain. At the cellular and molecular levels, the neuronal cellular milieu of the AD brain exhibits metabolic abnormalities, compromised bioenergetics, impaired lipid metabolism, and reduced overall metabolic capacity, which lead to abnormal neural network activity and impaired neuroplasticity, thus accelerating the formation of extracellular senile plaques and intracellular neurofibrillary tangles. 

https://translationalneurodegeneration.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s40035-023-00364-y#:~:text=AD patients have defects in,impairment and dementia [25].

As for the article in question, it does say that AD is a metabolic disease and that we should focus on metabolites that are affected by metabolic alterations to find effective therapeutics. It also says the considering AD as a kind of metabolic disease, we suggest insulin, adiponectin and antioxidants as having mechanistic links. Furthermore, glucose is the main fuel of the brain and ketones used only in the absence of glucose. Intranasal injections were performed on mild cases with no mention of size effect. As for plasticity, it is impaired in AD patients (see first reference) and I am not aware that it could function fast enough and completely enough to bring a patient from almost a vegetative state to partial or full lucidity.

Respectfully!

 

.

9 hours ago, iNow said:

Part of the problem here is you’re seemingly looking for articles that support your existing conclusions. 

 

Doing this work when I have time to do it; so not much time at hand. First four search links strongly suggesting that it is the whole brain. As for being biased, we all are!

[iNow]

1 hour ago, Luc Turpin said:

First four search links strongly suggesting that it is the whole brain

Struggling to understand. Did you say this in an attempt to rebut my point, or to amplify it?

[Luc Turpin]

23 minutes ago, iNow said:

Struggling to understand. Did you say this in an attempt to rebut my point, or to amplify it?

Both

[iNow]

Righto. You do realize the two are mutually exclusive, n’est pas?

[Luc Turpin]

21 minutes ago, iNow said:

Righto. You do realize the two are mutually exclusive, n’est pas?

Will do further search

 

 

12 minutes ago, Luc Turpin said:

Will do further search

 

 

You forgot the ‘ce’ in n’est ce pas

[iNow]

Merci. My fluency speaking surpasses my fluency typing, and usually holiday cheer is involved. Joyeuse Noel ✌🏼

[Luc Turpin]

1 hour ago, iNow said:

Merci. My fluency speaking surpasses my fluency typing, and usually holiday cheer is involved. Joyeuse Noel ✌🏼

 Joyeux Noel, you 'feminised" it 😊

I went on Google Scholar and picked at random five more studies (deleted only those that were too old) and most talked of multi-modal, multi-target effect, while one was talking of the thalamus and cortical region only, without mentioning if other regions were involved or not (another study thow seemed to indicate that the thalamus was a secondary target). Still, another study was a review of literature (multi-modal) and another one talked about theory moving away from localised in the past to moving toward global with more recent findings. Some studies still talked about the mystery of how anesthetic works.

During the holiday season, I will try and get a table together on this.

 

[DrmDoc]

9 hours ago, Luc Turpin said:

I appreciate greatly our discussion. 

This article says that (AD) is a major subtype of neurodegenerative dementia caused by long-term interactions and accumulation of multiple adverse factors, accompanied by dysregulation of numerous intracellular signaling and molecular pathways in the brain. At the cellular and molecular levels, the neuronal cellular milieu of the AD brain exhibits metabolic abnormalities, compromised bioenergetics, impaired lipid metabolism, and reduced overall metabolic capacity, which lead to abnormal neural network activity and impaired neuroplasticity, thus accelerating the formation of extracellular senile plaques and intracellular neurofibrillary tangles. 

https://translationalneurodegeneration.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s40035-023-00364-y#:~:text=AD patients have defects in,impairment and dementia [25].

As for the article in question, it does say that AD is a metabolic disease and that we should focus on metabolites that are affected by metabolic alterations to find effective therapeutics. It also says the considering AD as a kind of metabolic disease, we suggest insulin, adiponectin and antioxidants as having mechanistic links. Furthermore, glucose is the main fuel of the brain and ketones used only in the absence of glucose. Intranasal injections were performed on mild cases with no mention of size effect. As for plasticity, it is impaired in AD patients (see first reference) and I am not aware that it could function fast enough and completely enough to bring a patient from almost a vegetative state to partial or full lucidity.

 

In your hopeful pursuit of support for your perspective, you might be reading a bit too much into the wording of your citation.  As you have provided, the article purports that "...the AD brain exhibits metabolic abnormalities..." that ultimately "impaired neuroplasticity."  This is not a declarative statement affirming the complete cessation of all metabolic activity in the AD brain nor does it infer a complete breakdown of that brain's neuroplastic capabilities.  Contrary to your read of the article, evidence for a potentially lucid AD brain is suggested by those brain functions that continue to operate in the AD brain that sustain life and appear to generate directed behaviroal responses to stimuli such as gross locomotion, verbal responses to verbal cues, and responses to sound.  Actually, any response a damage brain generates suggests some continuing functionality.  If there is continuing functionality in a terminal brain, there remains a potential for lucidity.

As for the effectiveness of compromised neuroplasticity, hydrocephalia, leucotomy, and other significant brain damaging conditions and traumas suggest that not much functionally healthy and active brain tissue is required for the affected brain to produce behaviors suggestive of lucidity.  If there remains some sliver of healthy tissue in a severely damaged brain, clearly the potential for lucidity remains possible.  Lucidity in a damaged brain is likely about that brain's ability extract the resources it needs for stability from what little it may have remaining. 

Edited December 21, 2023 by DrmDoc
grammar

[Luc Turpin]

46 minutes ago, DrmDoc said:

In your hopeful pursuit of support for your perspective, you might be reading a bit too much into the wording of your citation.  As you have provided, the article purports that "...the AD brain exhibits metabolic abnormalities..." that ultimately "impaired neuroplasticity."  This is not a declarative statement affirming the complete cessation of all metabolic activity in the AD brain nor does it infer a complete breakdown of that brain's neuroplastic capabilities.  Contrary to your read of the article, evidence for a potentially lucid AD brain is suggested by those brain functions that continue to operate in the AD brain that sustain life and appear to generate directed behaviroal responses to stimuli such as gross locomotion, verbal responses to verbal cues, and responses to sound.  Actually, any response a damage brain generates suggests some continuing functionality.  If there is continuing functionality in a terminal brain, there remains a potential for lucidity.

As for the effectiveness of compromised neuroplasticity, hydrocephalia, leucotomy, and other significant brain damaging conditions and traumas suggest that not much functionally healthy and active brain tissue is required for the affected brain to produce behaviors suggestive of lucidity.  If there remains some sliver of healthy tissue in a severely damaged brain, clearly the potential for lucidity remains possible.  Lucidity in a damaged brain is likely about that brain's ability extract the resources it needs for stability from what little it may have remaining. 

You bring up good points. Unavailable for now, but will get back to you tomorrow or the day after

 

[Luc Turpin]

On 12/21/2023 at 5:30 PM, DrmDoc said:

In your hopeful pursuit of support for your perspective, you might be reading a bit too much into the wording of your citation.  As you have provided, the article purports that "...the AD brain exhibits metabolic abnormalities..." that ultimately "impaired neuroplasticity."  This is not a declarative statement affirming the complete cessation of all metabolic activity in the AD brain nor does it infer a complete breakdown of that brain's neuroplastic capabilities.  Contrary to your read of the article, evidence for a potentially lucid AD brain is suggested by those brain functions that continue to operate in the AD brain that sustain life and appear to generate directed behaviroal responses to stimuli such as gross locomotion, verbal responses to verbal cues, and responses to sound.  Actually, any response a damage brain generates suggests some continuing functionality.  If there is continuing functionality in a terminal brain, there remains a potential for lucidity.

As for the effectiveness of compromised neuroplasticity, hydrocephalia, leucotomy, and other significant brain damaging conditions and traumas suggest that not much functionally healthy and active brain tissue is required for the affected brain to produce behaviors suggestive of lucidity.  If there remains some sliver of healthy tissue in a severely damaged brain, clearly the potential for lucidity remains possible.  Lucidity in a damaged brain is likely about that brain's ability extract the resources it needs for stability from what little it may have remaining. 

 

I admit to have read too much into the data. So much so that I forgot about the man having only a thin sheet of actual brain with a 75/100 IQ, a job, family and normal life, which concurs with your perspective that continued functionality is maintained in damaged brains. You also present hydrocephaly, leucotomy and other conditions as additional examples of maintained functionality.

 

Nonetheless, how does a man with a large part of his brain missing maintain almost full functionality and lucidity? Or how does an AD patient with significant brain atrophy, widespread damage, neuronal death and severed neuronal connections between various brain regions suddenly recover almost full functionality and lucidity? Other examples given raise similar issues. At play here is the role of brain size, specialized brain areas, neuronal count and neuronal connections on cognition. 
 

The brain may be trying to return to an homeostatic state through neuroplasticity in all of the stated examples, but it may be far from the full picture. Something else might also be at work. Findings like these call into question our conviction of knowing with quasi certainty how our brains work.

Happy holidays!

[iNow]

55 minutes ago, Luc Turpin said:

how does a man with a large part of his brain missing maintain almost full functionality and lucidity?

It’s NOT full, though.

It’s more like learning to use ones toes to hold the brush when cleaning their teeth after their arms were blown off by an IED. Nobody uses their toes to hold the toothbrush unless they have to because it works less well and is not as good as using hands. One can dig a hole in the yard using a plastic spoon, but a spade shovel would be better  

It’s an adaptation or workaround so as to avoid total functionality loss, but is not ever “full functionality.” Similar with the brain. Adaptability and redundancy are what often get selected, not specific function. 
 

1 hour ago, Luc Turpin said:

Something else might also be at work.

Such as?

[Luc Turpin]

46 minutes ago, iNow said:

It’s NOT full, though.

It’s more like learning to use ones toes to hold the brush when cleaning their teeth after their arms were blown off by an IED. Nobody uses their toes to hold the toothbrush unless they have to because it works less well and is not as good as using hands. One can dig a hole in the yard using a plastic spoon, but a spade shovel would be better  

It’s an adaptation or workaround so as to avoid total functionality loss, but is not ever “full functionality.” Similar with the brain. Adaptability and redundancy are what often get selected, not specific function. 
 

Such as?

Not full functionality, but much more than one would anticipate with a thin sheet of brain.

Adaptation plays a significant role for the man wtih the thin sheet of brain, but not in AD patients. Furthermore, your example of brushing teeth with your toes is still done with an intact brain. With our current knowledge of brain function, a man trying to do this with a seriously incapacitated brain should not be able to do so.

Such as? Lots of hypotheses out there. I might present a post on leading ones.

[iNow]

1 hour ago, Luc Turpin said:

much more than one would anticipate with a thin sheet of brain

How much is that?

 

1 hour ago, Luc Turpin said:

Adaptation plays a significant role for the man wtih the thin sheet of brain, but not in AD patients

This is remedially false. There are multiple lines of research showing the ways elderly folks losing memory compensate via other means and through use of mechanisms normally applied elsewhere. Emotion takes on a far greater role too, and reptilian portions of the brain regain much of the lost dominance they had shortly after birth.

 

1 hour ago, Luc Turpin said:

With our current knowledge of brain function, a man trying to do this with a seriously incapacitated brain should not be able to do so.

Perhaps with YOUR current knowledge, but not with mine. Mine would say, details matter here. Incapacitated how, where, and when as obvious followup queries.