AIkonoklazt Posted December 28, 2023 Posted December 28, 2023 On 12/28/2023 at 12:29 AM, Endy0816 said: @AIkonoklazt There are hardware RNG's. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardware_random_number_generator Beyond activation no human needs to be involved Expand Who or what wrote the algorithms that take the input? On 12/28/2023 at 12:25 AM, iNow said: Nobody here except you has mentioned policy, AI or otherwise. The thread regards whether evolution is an earth only process. Expand People started addressing my objection regarding the article cited by OP. I agree to split thread.
swansont Posted December 28, 2023 Posted December 28, 2023 On 12/27/2023 at 11:37 PM, AIkonoklazt said: The capability came from human input. Terms like "self-driving car" or "self-modification / self-production" of any artifact are ignorant misattributions of agency (see the court case I mention below. The judge himself claimed ignorance on the subject) ...That capability came from human beings. Artifacts are not self-actuated entities. Expand Which is completely beside the point. Repeating the strawman doesn’t make it any more relevant.
Endy0816 Posted December 28, 2023 Posted December 28, 2023 On 12/28/2023 at 12:35 AM, AIkonoklazt said: Who or what wrote the algorithms that take the input? People started addressing my objection regarding the article cited by OP. I agree to split thread. Expand You're probably see an initial compiler and or interpreter program. They're really nothing fancy as far as coding goes. You could also do this at the hardware level. Programming isn't really required though it would make it easier.
AIkonoklazt Posted December 28, 2023 Posted December 28, 2023 On 12/28/2023 at 1:33 AM, swansont said: Which is completely beside the point. Repeating the strawman doesn’t make it any more relevant. Expand Not a strawman against the titular claim of the article ("...by itself") as well as all others like it. On 12/28/2023 at 1:37 AM, Endy0816 said: You're probably see an initial compiler and or interpreter program. They're really nothing fancy as far as coding goes. You could also do this at the hardware level. Programming isn't really required though it would make it easier. Expand The hardware level is still considered to be programming.
Endy0816 Posted December 28, 2023 Posted December 28, 2023 (edited) On 12/28/2023 at 1:56 AM, AIkonoklazt said: The hardware level is still considered to be programming. Expand Partly isn't programmed by anyone though... There's always human neurons we use too, if you think intelligence is limited to those . Edited December 28, 2023 by Endy0816
Arthur Smith Posted December 28, 2023 Posted December 28, 2023 On 12/26/2023 at 12:12 AM, swansont said: We speak of language evolving, or technology evolving. Of course AI is going to evolve. It just won't necessarily be Darwinian. Expand Asking as a dyed-in-the-wool adaptationist, what other mechanisms can be substituted for selection that produce change over time?
studiot Posted December 28, 2023 Posted December 28, 2023 On 12/28/2023 at 7:35 AM, Arthur Smith said: Asking as a dyed-in-the-wool adaptationist, what other mechanisms can be substituted for selection that produce change over time? Expand External intervention, deliberate or otherwise.
swansont Posted December 28, 2023 Posted December 28, 2023 On 12/28/2023 at 1:56 AM, AIkonoklazt said: Not a strawman against the titular claim of the article ("...by itself") as well as all others like it. Expand After the code was written, was there any intervention by humans? On 12/28/2023 at 7:35 AM, Arthur Smith said: Asking as a dyed-in-the-wool adaptationist, what other mechanisms can be substituted for selection that produce change over time? Expand Drift also does this. What is the point?
Arthur Smith Posted December 29, 2023 Posted December 29, 2023 On 12/28/2023 at 2:09 PM, swansont said: Drift also does this. Expand In small populations, random genetic drift results in loss of allelic variation, which in turn can lead to extinction. I guess the empty niche left is an opportunity for another species. I'm yet to be convinced of how else drift contributes to adaptive evolution. On 12/28/2023 at 12:05 PM, studiot said: External intervention, deliberate or otherwise. Expand Would that not be artificial selection?
AIkonoklazt Posted December 29, 2023 Posted December 29, 2023 On 12/28/2023 at 4:35 AM, Endy0816 said: Partly isn't programmed by anyone though... There's always human neurons we use too, if you think intelligence is limited to those . Expand Which part do you refer to which isn't subject to algorithmic operation? Human neurons aren't results of design, and thus are not artifacts. On 12/28/2023 at 2:09 PM, swansont said: After the code was written, was there any intervention by humans? Expand It doesn't matter. You can't roll a marble on a table and attribute agency to it after it leaves your hand. Since I've admitted that the term "evolution" can denote simple "change," I am derailing the topic- Maybe this thread can be split.
swansont Posted December 29, 2023 Posted December 29, 2023 On 12/29/2023 at 12:02 AM, Arthur Smith said: In small populations, random genetic drift results in loss of allelic variation, which in turn can lead to extinction. I guess the empty niche left is an opportunity for another species. I'm yet to be convinced of how else drift contributes to adaptive evolution. Expand Again: is there a point to this?
AIkonoklazt Posted December 29, 2023 Posted December 29, 2023 (edited) split Topic: Artifacts such as machines can never do anything "on its own." Edited December 29, 2023 by AIkonoklazt
swansont Posted December 29, 2023 Posted December 29, 2023 On 12/29/2023 at 12:43 AM, AIkonoklazt said: It doesn't matter. You can't roll a marble on a table and attribute agency to it after it leaves your hand. Expand Demolishing yet another claim nobody has made. On 12/29/2023 at 1:04 AM, AIkonoklazt said: split Topic: Artifacts such as machines can never do anything "on its own." Expand You do know you have the power to start your own thread on the topic, right?
AIkonoklazt Posted December 29, 2023 Posted December 29, 2023 On 12/29/2023 at 1:05 AM, swansont said: Demolishing yet another claim nobody has made. Expand The article I linked to had a titular claim which is a misattribution of agency to a machine.
swansont Posted December 29, 2023 Posted December 29, 2023 On 12/29/2023 at 1:07 AM, AIkonoklazt said: The article I linked to had a titular claim which is a misattribution of agency to a machine. Expand Does it mention marbles?
AIkonoklazt Posted December 29, 2023 Posted December 29, 2023 On 12/29/2023 at 1:08 AM, swansont said: Does it mention marbles? Expand I used a marble as an example of an artifact. All machines are artifacts. On 12/29/2023 at 1:05 AM, swansont said: You do know you have the power to start your own thread on the topic, right? Expand I wasn't sure if splitting threads involve actually removing messages from one thread and placing them in another.
swansont Posted December 29, 2023 Posted December 29, 2023 On 12/29/2023 at 1:09 AM, AIkonoklazt said: I used a marble as an example of an artifact. All machines are artifacts. Expand The fallacy pointed out so well by Monty Python 'All wood burns,' states Sir Bedevere. 'Therefore,' he concludes, 'all that burns is wood.' This is, of course, pure bullshit. Universal affirmatives can only be partially converted: all of Alma Cogan is dead, but only some of the class of dead people are Alma Cogan. IOW, not all artifacts are computers; a marble is not a valid substitute.
AIkonoklazt Posted December 29, 2023 Posted December 29, 2023 On 12/29/2023 at 1:19 AM, swansont said: The fallacy pointed out so well by Monty Python 'All wood burns,' states Sir Bedevere. 'Therefore,' he concludes, 'all that burns is wood.' This is, of course, pure bullshit. Universal affirmatives can only be partially converted: all of Alma Cogan is dead, but only some of the class of dead people are Alma Cogan. IOW, not all artifacts are computers; a marble is not a valid substitute. Expand I don't see how that applies to the analogy, since neither marble nor machine gains agency after it leaves human hands.
swansont Posted December 29, 2023 Posted December 29, 2023 On 12/29/2023 at 1:22 AM, AIkonoklazt said: I don't see how that applies to the analogy, since neither marble nor machine gains agency after it leaves human hands. Expand You’re going to have to define what you mean by “gains agency” because this seems trivially wrong.
AIkonoklazt Posted December 29, 2023 Posted December 29, 2023 (edited) On 12/29/2023 at 2:10 AM, swansont said: You’re going to have to define what you mean by “gains agency” because this seems trivially wrong. Expand A machine doesn't have any agency, during its construction and programming, or after. It won't suddenly possess agency after its design process. Edited December 29, 2023 by AIkonoklazt
swansont Posted December 29, 2023 Posted December 29, 2023 On 12/29/2023 at 2:30 AM, AIkonoklazt said: A machine doesn't have any agency, during its construction and programming, or after. It won't suddenly possess agency after its design process. Expand Please define what you mean by agency. Repetition is not definition. I don’t know why you are sidestepping this.
dimreepr Posted December 29, 2023 Posted December 29, 2023 On 12/29/2023 at 2:30 AM, AIkonoklazt said: A machine doesn't have any agency, during its construction and programming, or after. It won't suddenly possess agency after its design process. Expand And? In a topic about evolution, which is essentially the process of getting better at what it is/does, there can be absolutely no doubt that this is happening with computer's; in fact IIRC human's no longer designs the architecture of a computer chip, a computer does. We can never know what evolution will produce tomorrow, given enough tomorrow's it could be anything that's physically possible, even a computer with agency. On 12/29/2023 at 12:26 PM, swansont said: I don’t know why you are sidestepping this. Expand Because he doesn't know the answer, ask enough times and he'll block you (don't worry, he can't hear me 😉).
Endy0816 Posted December 29, 2023 Posted December 29, 2023 On 12/29/2023 at 12:43 AM, AIkonoklazt said: Which part do you refer to which isn't subject to algorithmic operation? Human neurons aren't results of design, and thus are not artifacts. Expand The True random numbers are not the result of an algorithm. Most of us are more familiar with a computer's typical pseudorandom numbers, but that isn't the only option. Not sure what you mean by artifacts here. This article talks about it: https://futurism.com/neoscope/computer-human-brain-cells-perform-voice-recognition
dimreepr Posted December 29, 2023 Posted December 29, 2023 On 12/29/2023 at 1:50 PM, Endy0816 said: Not sure what you mean by artifacts here. Expand Don't worry, nor is he. Organoid's are an exciting new line of inquiry thoguh.
Arthur Smith Posted December 29, 2023 Posted December 29, 2023 (edited) On 12/29/2023 at 1:03 AM, swansont said: Again: is there a point to this? Expand Yes. Evolution requires a selective bias for adaptive change to take place. Drift does not introduce selective bias. Your demand for a definition of "agency" may be perhaps answered by a selection process. Edited December 29, 2023 by Arthur Smith
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