Is US higher education the best in the world?

[Mordred]

Lol another funny coincidence during my internship TRIUMF was in collaboration with Germany in regards to polarized neutron research using helium-3 as the best candidate for production. They were also in a big push for the TR30 accelerator in conjuction with EBCO Industries. 

It's amazing what you learn for example one wouldn't think a cyclotron would require a radio license to operate however TRIUMF required one. At that time NORDION a radio pharmaceutical company wanted to purchase the first TR30 for proton therapy.( the replacement for CP42 if I recall correctly).  I wasn't too involved on the medical side but they certainly gave lots of lectures on the topic lol. 

As you mention the real learning comes when you need to apply what you learned. For my MSc my dissertation was on quintessence inflation. I long ago lost my copy due to a fire however it was shown invalid with WMAP findings (I didn't have sufficient e-folds to match observational evidence that came available later). Also didn't help that I was also employing Parker radiation for expanding Cosmology. Lol there's a radiation you don't hear about nowadays in Cosmology. (Though I believe there is a variation of Parker radiation in medical applications don't know if that variation is still used today)

Edited May 27 by Mordred

[swansont]

1 hour ago, Mordred said:

It's amazing what you learn for example one wouldn't think a cyclotron would require a radio license to operate however TRIUMF required one. At that time NORDION a radio pharmaceutical company wanted to purchase the first TR30 for proton therapy.( the replacement for CP42 if I recall correctly).  I wasn't too involved on the medical side but they certainly gave lots of lectures on the topic lol. 

It was and is a very public, reasonably easy-to-understand service for when people ask what impact an accelerator has on every-day lives.

 

My weird-thing-at-TRIUMF story is that we tried to trap Francium, made at the isotope separator (TISOL; before ISAC came online) and the lab got a visit from a nuke watchdog who looked for fallout from bomb testing. Basically a set of huge filters to trap particulates, and then tested for radioactives. We were making tiny amounts of a range of unstable heavy isotopes as a byproduct, but they weren’t far away, so they noticed. Wrong signature for a bomb, but they wanted to be sure what we were doing.

(the DRAGON instrument got its name from a colleague’s plot showing the unknown physics space the device would be able to investigate, labeled “Here Be Dragons” like an old map. Certain people liked the name, so they did a backronym)

[Mordred]

I was always wondering how DRAGON got it's name ISOL was before my time as well. TiSOL was just recently put online a couple of years prior (88-89) was when I was there. Sounds as though you and I were there in a similar time frame.

 I was able to visit the Synchrotron in  Sakatchewan as I had a relative that worked in that facility. It's another impressive facility. It also helped one of my uncles of my father's side was teaching at UBC.

Edited May 27 by Mordred

[dimreepr]

On 2/2/2024 at 5:50 PM, Otto Kretschmer said:

Why do you think so many US universities make it to top ranks?

Why were the Beatles so popular? 

 

[John Cuthber]

On 5/27/2024 at 2:27 PM, dimreepr said:

Higher education, higher than what?

Higher than school.
i.e tertiary education.

 

[dimreepr]

1 minute ago, John Cuthber said:

Higher than school.
i.e tertiary education.

 

Did you stop learning when your teacher stopped teaching?

3 thousand years of yesterday is but an excuse for tomorrow 

[John Cuthber]

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

Did you stop learning when your teacher stopped teaching?

No.
So what?

Were you not aware of the phrase?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Times_Higher_Education

 

higher education

/ˌhʌɪə ɛdjuːˈkeɪʃ(ə)n/

noun

 

1. education at universities or similar educational establishments, especially to degree level.

 

[swansont]

On 5/27/2024 at 5:47 PM, Mordred said:

I was always wondering how DRAGON got it's name ISOL was before my time as well. TiSOL was just recently put online a couple of years prior (88-89) was when I was there. Sounds as though you and I were there in a similar time frame.

 I was able to visit the Synchrotron in  Sakatchewan as I had a relative that worked in that facility. It's another impressive facility. It also helped one of my uncles of my father's side was teaching at UBC.

I was there late ‘95 through early ‘98 in the TRINAT group (TRIumf Neutral Atom Trap), which was established around ‘93, I think. They needed an atom trapper, which was outside the expertise of the people there. The other postdoc had learned a lot about it, but their background was nuclear/particle. We trapped some radioactive potassium isotopes, and once that system was running they could focus on the nuclear physics experiments. Since I helped build the apparatus my name was on a half-dozen papers after I left.

7 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Why were the Beatles so popular? 

 

I think Otto is looking for actual engagement, not rhetorical questions that have only a passing relevance to the issue.

[Otto Kretschmer]

It just occured to me that the perceived superiority of US higher education might have something to do with it's nature 

US universities are not free and in fact it costs a whole lot to study at the bedt ones.

Which means that the best private US universities have a ton of money just from student tuition fees.

Which in turn means they have the money to hire the best researchers and buy the best research equipment qvailable.

Seems logical to me.

[CharonY]

Nope, even in the US tuition usually does not cover the cost of teaching. In public unis, each student is still subsidized by public monies. Tuition just covers the short fall. Similarly, the largest chunk of money in private unis are endowements. The only group making money from tuition are for-profits, but their quality is so bad, it is often around scam levels.

I forgot the precise  numbers, but I think tuition covers roughly 30-60% of the cost per student.  So tuition does not provide excess funding.

[CharonY]

One thing related to perception: the USA has some of the largest federal expenditures relative to GDP in the world >3%). There are a number of European countries e.g. Germany, Sweden, Switzerland who are at similar or higher levels. However, due to the large GDP of the USA, in absolute terms it is a larger chunk of money that they can concentrate on prestige projects. In that regard, countries like Canada and UK (~1.6%) are falling behind even relative to the European average (~2%). 

I will also note that quite a bit of that is also pop culture and the US universities do quite a lot of PR work (which is largely absent in Europe).

[Mordred]

The other factor we are missing is that certain universities are better at one program but fall behind in other programs. So depending on the area of study one University that may be top ranked may be behind in the area of study.

For example a university that focuses of trade schooling may be lacking in hard sciences.

 

Edited May 31 by Mordred

[CharonY]

Though generally speaking, I never really found a meaningful difference on the undergrad level. Perhaps the one thing is that many top programs are able to delay grade inflation more as they have more applicants. Maybe there is more in other disciplines that I am missing.

[bananaharvester]

On 5/31/2024 at 12:02 PM, CharonY said:

One thing related to perception: the USA has some of the largest federal expenditures relative to GDP in the world >3%). There are a number of European countries e.g. Germany, Sweden, Switzerland who are at similar or higher levels. However, due to the large GDP of the USA, in absolute terms it is a larger chunk of money that they can concentrate on prestige projects. In that regard, countries like Canada and UK (~1.6%) are falling behind even relative to the European average (~2%). 

I will also note that quite a bit of that is also pop culture and the US universities do quite a lot of PR work (which is largely absent in Europe).

I guess how are you defining PR work? I think that the EU and specific countries within the EU (I.e. Germany) still do science outreach work in various media outlets, perhaps it is less sensational and less about gaining more funding or popularity for research.

 

On 3/27/2024 at 11:27 AM, CharonY said:

Of course it is. Germans like to categorize stuff and there is a distinction between applied sciences (which are often called Technische Hochschule) which usually includes areas such areas with applied training such as engineering, nursing etc. and "regular universities. 

I think there's an overlap between the course offerings in the university of applied sciences and the technical universities, but there are some degree programs that Only "Technische Hochschule" or "Fachhochschule" have.

[LuckyR]

12 hours ago, bananaharvester said:

I guess how are you defining PR work? I think that the EU and specific countries within the EU (I.e. Germany) still do science outreach work in various media outlets, perhaps it is less sensational and less about gaining more funding or popularity for research.

It really depends on what the OP means by "best". There's no way that any country has a lock on the transfer of undergraduate curriculum. OTOH certain schools located in certain countries will make it easer to get into Grad school or to be hired by prestigious corporations.

[CharonY]

12 hours ago, bananaharvester said:

I guess how are you defining PR work? I think that the EU and specific countries within the EU (I.e. Germany) still do science outreach work in various media outlets, perhaps it is less sensational and less about gaining more funding or popularity for research.

It was quite on a different level, especially compared to the US. Heck, milions into sports teams are part of the effort to attract student, and generate endorsements. Every faculty in the US has advisers and recruiters that go out and attract students. Unless something massively changed, that was not the case in Germany or  France.

[bananaharvester]

12 hours ago, CharonY said:

It was quite on a different level, especially compared to the US. Heck, milions into sports teams are part of the effort to attract student, and generate endorsements. Every faculty in the US has advisers and recruiters that go out and attract students. Unless something massively changed, that was not the case in Germany or  France.

I agree with you on that aspect of things. I think the efforts to attract students to study a field are far more indirect in France and Germany, such as through science shows funded by the government but most universities definitely don't have sports teams that are televised and broadcast on people's phones.

I think there are a few departments that try to attract non-EU students for diversity purposes.

[CharonY]

5 hours ago, bananaharvester said:

I agree with you on that aspect of things. I think the efforts to attract students to study a field are far more indirect in France and Germany, such as through science shows funded by the government but most universities definitely don't have sports teams that are televised and broadcast on people's phones.

I think there are a few departments that try to attract non-EU students for diversity purposes.

Actually, I think the main incentives for Unis in the US (and other countries with high tuition rates) for foreign students is to get more money. This incentive is largely absent in European countries (with some exceptions). Conversely, it is easier to build a diverse work group in the US (or Canada for that matter) than in many parts of Europe.

Edit: I think it was mentioned before, but the defining difference is funding. In countries like Germany and France University entirely (or close to) funded by government. Conversely, in countries like Canada and USA, even public universities fund about 40% of their income from tuition and student services (e.g., dorms). 

As a consequence there is business incentives to advertise and cater to students. In Germany, about 70% of salaries goes towards faculty and research/teaching related staff and 30% to administration. In Canada and the US it is about 50:50 and in some cases non-teaching/research positions can go up to 60%. That is why students in the US have access to all kind of support services, whereas in Germany the support service was a mildly confused instructor for 1000 students.

[bananaharvester]

6 hours ago, CharonY said:

Actually, I think the main incentives for Unis in the US (and other countries with high tuition rates) for foreign students is to get more money. This incentive is largely absent in European countries (with some exceptions). Conversely, it is easier to build a diverse work group in the US (or Canada for that matter) than in many parts of Europe.

Edit: I think it was mentioned before, but the defining difference is funding. In countries like Germany and France University entirely (or close to) funded by government. Conversely, in countries like Canada and USA, even public universities fund about 40% of their income from tuition and student services (e.g., dorms). 

As a consequence there is business incentives to advertise and cater to students. In Germany, about 70% of salaries goes towards faculty and research/teaching related staff and 30% to administration. In Canada and the US it is about 50:50 and in some cases non-teaching/research positions can go up to 60%. That is why students in the US have access to all kind of support services, whereas in Germany the support service was a mildly confused instructor for 1000 students.

When I was talking about foreign students, I was talking about universities in the EU attracting foreign students from outside the EU. Quite a few countries in the EU require tuition fees (in some countries is can be quite substantial, like Denmark) for non-EU applicants unless they win a scholarship.  Some federal states in Germany have also done the same. Therefore, they are adopting the US neo-liberal market idea of using foreign students as cash cows.

Yes I was already aware about the differences in funding.

 

[CharonY]

39 minutes ago, bananaharvester said:

Therefore, they are adopting the US neo-liberal market idea of using foreign students as cash cows.

Yeah, to some degree, but as I mentioned internationals are just a small basis and in contrast to the US. I do not know the Norwegian system, but I think they only recently introduced fees (for public unis). Finland had it for longer, IIRC (around 2017 or so?) but it was still roughly half of what internationals pay in Canada or the US. It doesn't mean that it will stay that way, though the critical element is the base funding from the government. If it keeps pace with costs, I would assume that most European unis would stay course as catering to internationals would only have marginal benefits (and may be offset partially due to increase in administrative course). If, however politicians in their endless neo-liberal wisdom decide to make European unis more like the US, then they will also be in for bad decisions, I'd wager.