American hubris

[StringJunky]

2 hours ago, CharonY said:

I am a bit skeptical regarding the horseshoe theory of politics. Mostly because of the simplification, I suppose. They are probably only similar for some traits, but rather heterogeneous in others. I.e. you can split extremists in many camps and trying to find a singular trait that organizes all of the in a particular way is difficult. And looking at sentiments, these will also be very different depending on the population. 

Russia still has communist factions that align  well with the FR Russian politicians. Putin reveres Stalin and latter Marxist-Leninist as far as I understand. Putin ain't no practicing Communist.  

Edited February 29 by StringJunky

[J.C.MacSwell]

30 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Russia still has communist factions that align  well with the FR Russian politicians. Putin reveres Stalin and latter Marxist-Leninist as far as I understand. Putin ain't no practicing Communist.  

Nor was Stalin. Communism is a power vacuum that human nature abhors. Communista don't practice communism. They practice dictatorship.

[CharonY]

1 hour ago, StringJunky said:

Russia still has communist factions that align  well with the FR Russian politicians. Putin reveres Stalin and latter Marxist-Leninist as far as I understand. Putin ain't no practicing Communist.  

The issue here is the the left-right axis assumption. As you rightly indicated, Putin clearly adores the authoritarian history of communism, yet not the ideologically defining part of collectivism and economic system. And this is essentially what folks criticize regarding the horseshoe model. If you simplify anything enough, it becomes easy to draw parallels between almost arbitrary points. 

[Phi for All]

4 hours ago, swansont said:

It’s not like that in the US, though. For the last ~30 years the economy has crashed when the right has been in charge, and the left fixes it, at least to some extent. The last 4 GOP presidential terms have resulted in a net growth of less than a million jobs, and three recessions started on their watch.

Perhaps this can be attributed to American hubris on the right? AFAICT, many on the right are proud of only watching one news source. They don't stray from those sources, taking them almost like gospel. So they actually believe the left wrecks the economy while the right fixes it, despite the Clinton surplus that Bush II destroyed, and the job Obama did with the economy after Bush II ended in a huge recession, and of course TFG made history with how bad he messed up a booming Obama economy. The American right seems inordinately proud of closing their minds.

[TheVat]

4 hours ago, CharonY said:

will also note that populism thrives in a fact-free space and historically has led to rather problematic outcomes. It is not an issue of being corrupted, but an inherent weakness in the system.

This seems to go to the core of the current problems.  Populism is predicated on the notion that leadership matters.  Democracy, on the notion that facts, laws and principles matter.  The allure of populism is the notion that a great leader will determine what is true, relieving people of the burdens of ambiguity and clashing ideas.  Democracy requires fact acquisition in a public space where truths are larger than any one person, no matter how "great" they are.  When American culturally shifts towards placing authority in politicians and celebrities, then the authority of laws and facts and principles suffers and we start to export "crazy."  As a nation among nations we need to stop talking and start listening.  Stop imagining ours as the most important voice in the global room.   

 

4 minutes ago, TheVat said:

(editing snafu)

 

Edited February 29 by TheVat
a moron was typing

[swansont]

3 hours ago, Phi for All said:

Perhaps this can be attributed to American hubris on the right? AFAICT, many on the right are proud of only watching one news source. They don't stray from those sources, taking them almost like gospel. So they actually believe the left wrecks the economy while the right fixes it, despite the Clinton surplus that Bush II destroyed, and the job Obama did with the economy after Bush II ended in a huge recession, and of course TFG made history with how bad he messed up a booming Obama economy. The American right seems inordinately proud of closing their minds.

Right, you won’t hear this if you watch FOX or get your “news” from other right-wing sources. And the GOP seems to think that if you say something, it’s true, so they lie about their record. And tell whoppers like “this tax cut for the rich will pay for itself”

[swansont]

9 hours ago, MigL said:

That sounds an awful lot like what D Trump said 6-7 years ago when he suggested pulling out of NATO, and more recently when he said he would let V Putin have Ukraine, and possibly the rest of Europe, unless they start paying their share.
Careful, you might get called a 'Trumpet' 😄😄 .

I said nothing about pulling out of NATO, or made any suggestion about not standing up for my country’s friends. The emojis don’t make the suggestion less insulting. 

 

9 hours ago, MigL said:

It is not a matter of America being altruistic in providing defense for Europe and the rest of the free World, but a matter of self interest. It is always better to deal with free states than the likes of Russia, china, and other unreasonable autocratic states.

It’s almost lime Trump is only interested in his personal financial well-being, rather than having his country’s best interests in mind.

[MigL]

3 hours ago, swansont said:

The emojis don’t make the suggestion less insulting.

My apologies; it wasn't meant to be insulting.
The emojis were there because I've been called that in the past, on this forum.

3 hours ago, swansont said:

I said nothing about pulling out of NATO, or made any suggestion about not standing up for my country’s friends.

No, but those are the same reasons D Trump cited for wishing to pull out of NATO.
And why I led with "That sounds like ..."; nothing else was implied.

Edited March 1 by MigL

[genio]

16 hours ago, Phi for All said:

And this is the mistake many folks make when trying to interpret complex issues by using single words to define them. I know a LOT of people who think the way you do, that "liberal" means "anything goes" and conservative means "responsible". I also know a LOT of people who think conservative means "fearful" and "ignorant" and "stuck in the mud", while liberal means "progressive" and "hopeful" and "forward-thinking". This is the problem with using these terms with each other. It's hard to know how a person has been influenced when they use such broad terms.

I used the correct single words and "Two wrongs don't make a right" shouldn't have been erased because it makes it seem like I'm favoring the right when I'm not. I didn't use "anything goes" and "responsible" because I don't believe in these definitions for the left and the right. I also don't believe any of the other definitions for the left and the right. Another definition for liberals is putting the cart before the horse while another definition for conservatives is if it ain't broke; don't fix it. Both sides don't understand discipline.

I see politics as a bunch of incompetent squabbling chickens.

We need Laws because there are people who disregard the lives of others however it seems like non-born leaders are always trying to lead. Trump being a loudmouth non-born leader. Nayib Bukele (President of El Salvador) is an example of a born leader and how he swiftly cleaned up the country.

17 hours ago, Phi for All said:

I'm not sure hubris is the problem in the US. In trying to focus on capitalism to the exclusion of any other ownership principles, we're allowing our leadership to pretend to care about us when their re-elections are really up to big corporations. We may find it hard to give up what we think we've earned, but I don't think it's out of pride. If the American public had any pride at all we'd gather to stop these stains on humanity from exploiting us even further (the CEO of Kellogg's recently claimed that if we're worried about the high price of food, we should eat Frosted Flakes for dinner). 

We make very little investment in The People. Everything goes to keep big corporations in business, including bailing them out with tax dollars when they mess up. I think we should focus on better social spending and representing the will of The People, and maybe then we can better assess whether this is a matter of hubris or not.

From an outside perspective. It seems like Trump's hubris and his loudmouth followers does make the US look full of hubris.

Change is actually afoot. We'll get a taste of a compassionate collective neutrino energy starting April 12th till May 23rd. Then we'll see real change starting January 30 2025. This isn't astrology. It's the human design system and it doesn't contain nonsense astrology. It's a mechanical system which explains how neutrinos from the Sun and planets have an effect on our aura mechanics. The same Pluto energy was around when the American Revolutionary War started and eventually the American Constitution was written. We the people. 1775 + 248 years (pluto orbit around the Sun) = 2023

We've already seen this energy play out. Such as the outright ban of dangerous dog breeds in the UK. This is a great time to be alive in.

[LaurieAG]

15 hours ago, StringJunky said:

Go too far left or right, one ends up basically the same as the other.

Yes, the ancient Greek play "the Clouds" written by by Aristophanes around 2 thousand 4 hundred years ago is a good example  of what's happening now. It was no wonder that the Athenian League lost the Peloponesian war to the Spartans shortly after and democracy came a cropper. The hard bit is how to prevent the sophism, that mainly benefits the wealthy, from causing the Academy to be burnt down.

The neo far left may think it's smart but it is just being used as a weapon by the neo far right of the left to cow the traditional left wing rump and implement those draconian neo right wing policies. The neo's are the cause of the problem and they just drive their victims to Trump because they label all of them them as bigoted and racist.

[dimreepr]

14 hours ago, TheVat said:

This seems to go to the core of the current problems.  Populism is predicated on the notion that leadership matters.  Democracy, on the notion that facts, laws and principles matter.  The allure of populism is the notion that a great leader will determine what is true, relieving people of the burdens of ambiguity and clashing ideas.  Democracy requires fact acquisition in a public space where truths are larger than any one person, no matter how "great" they are. 

The real hubris of America (among others), is thinking that some people don't deserve a vote; I think populism would work fine if the populous all had a say.

All democracy requires to reveal the truth of society, is everyones voice, not just those of us that think/assume we know better.

[swansont]

7 hours ago, MigL said:

No, but those are the same reasons D Trump cited for wishing to pull out of NATO.

No, Trump accused them of not paying the US, like it was some sort of protection racket.

“Out of the 28 countries, 20 of them are delinquent.  You know what the “delinquent” means?  That’s an old real estate term.  “He’s delinquent with his rent.”  They’re delinquent with their payment.  They owe us a tremendous amount of money and they never pay us back.

Because if Germany doesn’t pay — they don’t add that up, they just say, “Oh, that’s okay.”  Then they don’t pay.  And yet, they’re — if you go back that way, like the old fashioned way –like you don’t pay and you owe it.  But they don’t pay and they just go on to the next year.  They owe us hundreds and hundreds of billions of dollars.”

https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-signing-executive-orders-transparency-federal-guidance-enforcement/

Some countries don’t spend the 2% of GDP on defense like they are supposed to, but that money isn’t owed to the US.

My point is that if the “geopolitical centre of gravity” needs to move toward other democracies, they will need a military that can project power when necessary. That’s not the same mission as NATO, i.e. providing defense against Soviet (now ex-Soviet) threats, and not a matter of hitting an arbitrary threshold of spending. e.g. Building aircraft carriers to send outside your home waters and putting the military in harm’s way are issues of political will, and if one wishes the US to have less relative influence, others will have to exert more.

[Phi for All]

6 hours ago, genio said:

I used the correct single words and "Two wrongs don't make a right" shouldn't have been erased because it makes it seem like I'm favoring the right when I'm not. I didn't use "anything goes" and "responsible" because I don't believe in these definitions for the left and the right. I also don't believe any of the other definitions for the left and the right. Another definition for liberals is putting the cart before the horse while another definition for conservatives is if it ain't broke; don't fix it. Both sides don't understand discipline.

I'm not sure why you seem to be objecting. You got my point, that these simple, un-nuanced definitions for complex concepts don't help us communicate effectively, but then you talk about "believing" in definitions, and deny that words like "wastefulness" to describe liberals shows that you ARE favoring the right.

6 hours ago, genio said:

Change is actually afoot. We'll get a taste of a compassionate collective neutrino energy starting April 12th till May 23rd. Then we'll see real change starting January 30 2025. This isn't astrology. It's the human design system and it doesn't contain nonsense astrology. It's a mechanical system which explains how neutrinos from the Sun and planets have an effect on our aura mechanics. The same Pluto energy was around when the American Revolutionary War started and eventually the American Constitution was written. We the people. 1775 + 248 years (pluto orbit around the Sun) = 2023

We've already seen this energy play out. Such as the outright ban of dangerous dog breeds in the UK. This is a great time to be alive in.

Wow, this may not be astrology, but it sounds a LOT like it. You can't use this kind of argument anywhere on this site until you've done some work to support it, IN ITS OWN THREAD. Be warned though, numerology is NOT science.

[MigL]

1 hour ago, swansont said:

Some countries don’t spend the 2% of GDP on defense like they are supposed to, but that money isn’t owed to the US.

You're squabbling over what D Trump doesn't say, just as you took offense to what I didn't say.

The 'delinquent' payments are not owed to the US; they are owed to the collective defense of NATO.
I would have thought You'd understand that.
You do know about NATO's collective defense policy ?

It is not comparable to rent or mortgage payments ( yes, I do know what delinquent means ); it is more like you, and every other American, paying their taxes for upkeep of public, collectively owned roads, while D Trump doesn't pay his fair share for the upkeep, but still gets to use the roads.

Subtle difference, but different nonetheless.

If Europe had kept up with their obligations to collective defense, they wouldn't have been caught with their pants down when V Putin invaded the Ukraine.
Now Europeans can't supply Ukraine with weapons/ammunition as they frantically try to ramp up production and spending, while the US, who is trying to come to their rescue again, is plagued by internal political squabbles with regards to supplying aid to Ukraine.
And if the Ukraine falls, how long before an emboldened V  Putin puts NATO's collective defense at risk ?

 

Edited March 1 by MigL

[TheVat]

6 hours ago, genio said:

This isn't astrology. It's the human design system and it doesn't contain nonsense astrology. It's a mechanical system which explains how neutrinos from the Sun and planets have an effect on our aura mechanics. The same Pluto energy was around when the American Revolutionary War started and eventually the American Constitution was written.

We saw the Pluto energy on the moon a few years ago...

 

2 hours ago, dimreepr said:

The real hubris of America (among others), is thinking that some people don't deserve a vote; I think populism would work fine if the populous all had a say.

All democracy requires to reveal the truth of society, is everyones voice, not just those of us that think/assume we know better.

This was what de Toqueville and John Stuart Mill were warning about when they spoke of "the tyranny of the majority."  They saw an inherent weakness to majority rule in which the majority of an electorate pursues exclusively its own objectives at the expense of those of the minority factions.  The minority needs a voice and to participate in policy making.  

[swansont]

2 hours ago, MigL said:

You're squabbling over what D Trump doesn't say, just as you took offense to what I didn't say.

The 'delinquent' payments are not owed to the US; they are owed to the collective defense of NATO.
I would have thought You'd understand that.
You do know about NATO's collective defense policy ?

It is not comparable to rent or mortgage payments ( yes, I do know what delinquent means ); it is more like you, and every other American, paying their taxes for upkeep of public, collectively owned roads, while D Trump doesn't pay his fair share for the upkeep, but still gets to use the roads.

Subtle difference, but different nonetheless.

Since I was quoting Trump (there are even quotation marks and a link to the original) to demonstrate his confusion, I don’t see why you think the misunderstanding is mine.

[genio]

6 hours ago, Phi for All said:

I'm not sure why you seem to be objecting. You got my point, that these simple, un-nuanced definitions for complex concepts don't help us communicate effectively, but then you talk about "believing" in definitions, and deny that words like "wastefulness" to describe liberals shows that you ARE favoring the right.

A nonconformist is neither a conformist nor an anti-conformist. A lot of people have the mentality of others being against them if they aren't with them. I'm trashing both sides. Again. Two wrongs don't make a right. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_wrongs_don't_make_a_right

6 hours ago, Phi for All said:

Wow, this may not be astrology, but it sounds a LOT like it. You can't use this kind of argument anywhere on this site until you've done some work to support it, IN ITS OWN THREAD. Be warned though, numerology is NOT science.

The human design system isn't astrology or numerology or a system that predicts the future even though there are zodiac symbols around the wheel to appease to the masses but that's how far it goes in terms of astrology. The wikipedia page on the human design system is incorrect because the human design system isn't a belief system. The human design system is mechanical in which a person surrenders to their aura mechanics and witnesses their mechanics in action. It speaks for itself. It isn't for everyone and it can't be "used" or "forced". The issue I have with the human design system is that the in dept science is hidden behind expensive books and a software application. I'll start my own thread to put it to the test since I have the software which reveals the in dept science of a person's aura mechanics.

Edited March 1 by genio

[MigL]

4 hours ago, swansont said:

Since I was quoting Trump (there are even quotation marks and a link to the original) to demonstrate his confusion, I don’t see why you think the misunderstanding is mine.

Because Germany's obligatory 2% of GDP is not paid to anyone,
They could very well spend it all in Germany; buying from their own defense contractors, or on wages for their military.
Even if they did meet their obligations to collective defense spending, that spending would not need to go to US defense contractors.
Even an idiot like D Trump should know that, or did you think he meant Germany was going to cut the US a cheque for a few Billion ?

You acknowledge that D Trump was confused, yet you seem to know that he meant they should pay for protection.
 

D Trump said Germany failed to meet its obligations to NATO, and, in his confusion, said they should pay the US.
You said Germany failed to meet their obligations ( I have also agreed ).
I said "that sounds similar to what D Trump said'.

Where am I wrong, and what are you so upset about ???

Edited March 1 by MigL

[CharonY]

12 minutes ago, MigL said:

Even an idiot like D Trump should know that, or did you think he meant Germany was going to cut the US a cheque for a few Billion ?

That is your interpretation. Here a couple of quotes in addition to the one provided above:

Quote

"Many countries owe us a tremendous amount of money from many years back, where they're delinquent as far as I'm concerned, because the United States has had to pay for them. So if you go back 10 or 20 years, you'll just add it all up, it's massive amounts of money is owed."

Quote

Many countries in NATO, which we are expected to defend, are not only short of their current commitment of 2% (which is low), but are also delinquent for many years in payments that have not been made. Will they reimburse the U.S.?

But on its face it does seem to want to demand payments. Of course one could argue (and it has been done a lot, much to the detriment to public discourse) that of course he meant things differently than what he said. In isolation one might want give someone the benefit of doubt, but this guy has been freaking president of a country and all the stuff he said is on record. Together with shining UV light into your arse, it is not really that far off to believe that yes, he would like to see a billion dollar cheque.

[swansont]

50 minutes ago, MigL said:

Because Germany's obligatory 2% of GDP is not paid to anyone,
They could very well spend it all in Germany; buying from their own defense contractors, or on wages for their military.
Even if they did meet their obligations to collective defense spending, that spending would not need to go to US defense contractors.

Indeed. If only I had demonstrated my understanding by saying "Some countries don’t spend the 2% of GDP on defense like they are supposed to, but that money isn’t owed to the US." Oh, wait - I did.

50 minutes ago, MigL said:

Even an idiot like D Trump should know that, or did you think he meant Germany was going to cut the US a cheque for a few Billion ?

He has said it so many times, it's obviously what he thinks is supposed to happen.

50 minutes ago, MigL said:

You acknowledge that D Trump was confused, yet you seem to know that he meant they should pay for protection.
 

D Trump said Germany failed to meet its obligations to NATO, and, in his confusion, said they should pay the US.
You said Germany failed to meet their obligations ( I have also agreed ).
I said "that sounds similar to what D Trump said'.

A) I never said that (I did not mention Germany, it's only in the Trump quote)

B) I wrote it (as a counter to Trump's statement) AFTER you said "you might get called a 'Trumpet' " so unless you are time-traveling, that's not what inspired your original statement. My original observation didn't even mention NATO.

 

50 minutes ago, MigL said:

Where am I wrong, and what are you so upset about ???

I've pointed out a few places now where you were wrong. Maybe you should stop digging.

You keep accusing me of things I did not say, and making a minor issue into a bigger one.

 

[TheVat]

2 hours ago, genio said:

The human design system is mechanical in which a person surrenders to their aura mechanics and witnesses their mechanics in action. It speaks for itself.

I wish it would speak for itself because I can't make the slightest sense out of what you're saying.  Perhaps you could open a thread under a forum heading where such mechanics would be relevant.  With (sigh) some evidence for such phenomena and their underlying principles.

[iNow]

He’s just trying to derail the thread. Literally every post he’s made

Edited March 2 by iNow

[dimreepr]

21 hours ago, TheVat said:

This was what de Toqueville and John Stuart Mill were warning about when they spoke of "the tyranny of the majority."  They saw an inherent weakness to majority rule in which the majority of an electorate pursues exclusively its own objectives at the expense of those of the minority factions.  The minority needs a voice and to participate in policy making.  

Indeed, hubris seeds it's own demise, Trump is just a symptom of a deep seated disease.

[Moontanman]

3 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Indeed, hubris seeds it's own demise, Trump is just a symptom of a deep seated disease.

Sadly I have to agree with you on this and the victims of this disease are anti vaccers!  

[MigL]

On 3/1/2024 at 5:07 PM, swansont said:

making a minor issue into a bigger one

Yeah ...  OK.
But I'm not the one who felt 'insulted'.
And we obviously have different definitions of the word 'similar'.

American hubris ...