do you believe demon possessions and fallen angels are real

[knowledgeispower917]

the new testament talks about demon possession many times. they say 1/3 of the NT was about jesus casting out demons and you can find those verse on openbible.info. so you believe in christianity then you would have to believe in demons and fallen angels as well. and my belief is that the aliens abductions and ufo activities are fallen angels and not extraterrestrials like the media claims. 

 

[swansont]

People used to believe is a lot of things. I remember reading that sneezing was thought to be the body trying to expel demons, hence the response of “God bless you.” Now we know that it’s a cold or an allergy, or irritation from dust.

You were supposed to bless a glass of water before you drank it, to keep the devil from entering your body. But now we understand getting sick from drinking bad quality water.

So I don’t put much stock in stories from long ago about demons and devils, or in modern stories about aliens being attributed to them. It’s just so much baloney.

[exchemist]

8 hours ago, knowledgeispower917 said:

the new testament talks about demon possession many times. they say 1/3 of the NT was about jesus casting out demons and you can find those verse on openbible.info. so you believe in christianity then you would have to believe in demons and fallen angels as well. and my belief is that the aliens abductions and ufo activities are fallen angels and not extraterrestrials like the media claims. 

 

It's absurd nonsense to say 1/3 of the New Testament is about casting out demons. There are a handful of stories, that's all. 

People did not understand mental illness in those days.

[MigL]

A lot of people have 'personal demons'.
Once the Church used to deal with such issues; nowdays Psychology and Psychiatry do the same.
The term 'personal demons' is used to describe mental issues/conditions that lead to destructive personal, or social, behavior.

Why do people want, or choose, to interpret what is clearly the time-specific allegory of the Bible, as fact ?

[Phi for All]

9 hours ago, knowledgeispower917 said:

and my belief is that the aliens abductions and ufo activities are fallen angels and not extraterrestrials like the media claims. 

This seems unproductive as a form of belief, discarding one extraordinary explanation for another. Neither angels nor extraterrestrials have as much supportive evidence as virtually ANY other explanation. Weather balloons are more likely than Michael or Martians.

[knowledgeispower917]

13 hours ago, swansont said:

People used to believe is a lot of things. I remember reading that sneezing was thought to be the body trying to expel demons, hence the response of “God bless you.” Now we know that it’s a cold or an allergy, or irritation from dust.

You were supposed to bless a glass of water before you drank it, to keep the devil from entering your body. But now we understand getting sick from drinking bad quality water.

So I don’t put much stock in stories from long ago about demons and devils, or in modern stories about aliens being attributed to them. It’s just so much baloney.

then how do you explain documented evidence of paranormal activities/hauntings, demon possessions and alien abductions? 

 

11 hours ago, Phi for All said:

This seems unproductive as a form of belief, discarding one extraordinary explanation for another. Neither angels nor extraterrestrials have as much supportive evidence as virtually ANY other explanation. Weather balloons are more likely than Michael or Martians.

 

11 hours ago, MigL said:

A lot of people have 'personal demons'.
Once the Church used to deal with such issues; nowdays Psychology and Psychiatry do the same.
The term 'personal demons' is used to describe mental issues/conditions that lead to destructive personal, or social, behavior.

Why do people want, or choose, to interpret what is clearly the time-specific allegory of the Bible, as fact ?

 

13 hours ago, exchemist said:

It's absurd nonsense to say 1/3 of the New Testament is about casting out demons. There are a handful of stories, that's all. 

People did not understand mental illness in those days.

then how do you explain documented evidence of paranormal activities/hauntings, demon possessions and alien abductions? 

 

[zapatos]

54 minutes ago, knowledgeispower917 said:

then how do you explain documented evidence of paranormal activities/hauntings, demon possessions and alien abductions? 

Incorrect interpretation of the evidence.

[exchemist]

8 hours ago, knowledgeispower917 said:

 

then how do you explain documented evidence of paranormal activities/hauntings, demon possessions and alien abductions? 

 

Seems like rather a non-sequitur to my post, which was pointing out the absurdity of the claim that 1/3 of the New Testament is concerned with casting out demons. I also suggested that a lot of these "demons" were how people of the time interpreted mental illness, epileptic fits etc. That seems fairly uncontroversial. Nothing I said was a commentary on modern stories about supposedly paranormal experiences. 

But as for how I explain those, I share the view of others on the thread that some people tend to resort to paranormal explanations for experiences they can't account for.  Others, of a more sceptical turn of mind or better educated, don't. 

 

 

 

Edited March 16 by exchemist

[swansont]

10 hours ago, knowledgeispower917 said:

then how do you explain documented evidence of paranormal activities/hauntings, demon possessions and alien abductions? 

I think if there were scientific evidence it would be documented better than in a youtube video (which, BTW, needs to comply with rule 2.7, found in the “guidelines” tab; a video is not a substitute for substantive discussion and documentation. Asking people to watch a 25-min video rather than you putting the effort in to explain the situation is not going to fly)

[joigus]

How about StPD at the root of many, if not all, of these reports?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizotypal_personality_disorder

Quote

classification describes the disorder specifically as a personality disorder characterized by thought disorder, paranoia, a characteristic form of social anxiety, derealization, transient psychosis, and unconventional beliefs.

Religious types could, after all, be not much more than socially-accepted schizotipicals, that have somehow met the medium, and the way, to make their illness socially palatable.

[Luc Turpin]

On 3/16/2024 at 2:00 PM, joigus said:

How about StPD at the root of many, if not all, of these reports?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizotypal_personality_disorder

Religious types could, after all, be not much more than socially-accepted schizotipicals, that have somehow met the medium, and the way, to make their illness socially palatable.

Large brush that you're painting with! 

My religious friends appear more mentally stable than most in society.

Their faith anchors them to a more benevolent-peaceful reality than science does.

Even if this reality is not so much benvolent and peaceful.

Disturbed individuals are all over, even in science.

[joigus]

23 minutes ago, Luc Turpin said:

My religious friends appear more mentally stable than most in society.

Schizotipical behaviour is not to do with mental stability. It's to do with delusional perception of experience (sensory or otherwise). Have you skimmed through the wikipedia article or references thereby? My emphasis in boldface in a sample from mentioned article:

Quote

1. Crespi B, Dinsdale N, Read S, Hurd P (2019-03-08). "Spirituality, dimensional autism, and schizotypal traits: The search for meaning". PLOS ONE. 14 (3): e0213456. Bibcode:2019PLoSO..1413456C. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0213456. PMC 6407781. PMID 30849096.
2. ^ Carvalho LF, Sagradim DE, Pianowski G, Gonçalves AP (2020-10-19). "Relationship between religiosity domains and traits from borderline and schizotypal personality disorders in a Brazilian community sample". Trends in Psychiatry and Psychotherapy. 42 (3): 239–246. doi:10.1590/2237-6089-2019-0085. PMC 7879071. PMID 33084801. S2CID 224828232.
3. ^ Breslin MJ, Lewis CA (2015-03-04). "Schizotypy and Religiosity: The Magic of Prayer". Archive for the Psychology of Religion. 37 (1): 84–97. doi:10.1163/15736121-12341300. ISSN 0084-6724. S2CID 144734469.
4. ^ Byrom GN (2009). "Differential Relationships between Experiential and Interpretive Dimensions of Mysticism and Schizotypal Magical Ideation in a University Sample". Archive for the Psychology of Religion. 31 (2): 127–150. doi:10.1163/157361209X424420. ISSN 0084-6724. S2CID 143580864.

Etc.

[exchemist]

7 minutes ago, joigus said:

Schizotipical behaviour is not to do with mental stability. It's to do with delusional perception of experience (sensory or otherwise). Have you skimmed through the wikipedia article or references thereby? My emphasis in boldface in a sample from mentioned article:

Etc.

But you still stigmatise them as ill. So ill but stable?

[Luc Turpin]

 

On 3/16/2024 at 2:00 PM, joigus said:

How about StPD at the root of many, if not all, of these reports?

I am reasonably ok with this one.

On 3/16/2024 at 2:00 PM, joigus said:

Religious types could, after all, be not much more than socially-accepted schizotipicals, that have somehow met the medium, and the way, to make their illness socially palatable.

But not this one.

When were delusional perception and schizptipicals fun things to have as labels; and it appears in the way that you worded it that all religious folks have these attributes.

Also, your quote makes mention of personality disorder, thought disorder, paranoia, social anxiety, derealization, transient psychosis, and unconventional beliefs. When were these things associated with mental stability? DSM-5 classifies them as disorders. Noted that some are "characteristics of others", but it still linking them all.

The referenced articles appear tamer in their conclusion than the Wiki article.

Correction -  Delusional perception was referenced here:

 

1 hour ago, joigus said:

Schizotipical behaviour is not to do with mental stability. It's to do with delusional perception of experience (sensory or otherwise). Have you skimmed through the wikipedia article or references thereby? My emphasis in boldface in a sample from mentioned article:

Etc.

 

[joigus]

1 hour ago, exchemist said:

But you still stigmatise them as ill. So ill but stable?

I didn't mean religious people --see my comments to Luc Turpin below.

Apparently schizotypals were discovered as a consequence of behaviour scientists wondering: How come an illness as detrimental as schizophrenia is so significantly present in the gene pool? --In the ballpark of 1%. Wouldn't there be a milder but related version of the illness that could be proven as advantageous under certain circumstances? The parallel was sickle-cell anemia, which can kill you, but a milder version of which can protect you from malaria. So they found a high correlation of peculiar characters in relatives of people suffering from schizophrenia.

I wouldn't dare to use the term "ill" for any of these people. AFAIK triggering of even serious form of schizophrenia only happens after environmental factors have made their appearance.

But I'm very far from being an expert here and I'd gladly accept corrections by anyone who knows more about this.

14 minutes ago, Luc Turpin said:

 

On 3/16/2024 at 7:00 PM, joigus said:

Religious types could, after all, be not much more than socially-accepted schizotipicals, that have somehow met the medium, and the way, to make their illness socially palatable.

But not this one.

Sorry, by "religious types" I didn't mean the followers of a religion. Rather, I meant the prophets, the visionaries, the people who hear voices, the people who see angels. You know, the founders of religions.

The following of a religion is a completely different matter. Some people join because they feel comforted, others because they want to fit in, others because they are folklore-motivated, etc. Who knows. At least, I don't.

[Luc Turpin]

37 minutes ago, joigus said:

I didn't mean religious people --see my comments to Luc Turpin below.

Apparently schizotypals were discovered as a consequence of behaviour scientists wondering: How come an illness as detrimental as schizophrenia is so significantly present in the gene pool? --In the ballpark of 1%. Wouldn't there be a milder but related version of the illness that could be proven as advantageous under certain circumstances? The parallel was sickle-cell anemia, which can kill you, but a milder version of which can protect you from malaria. So they found a high correlation of peculiar characters in relatives of people suffering from schizophrenia.

I wouldn't dare to use the term "ill" for any of these people. AFAIK triggering of even serious form of schizophrenia only happens after environmental factors have made their appearance.

But I'm very far from being an expert here and I'd gladly accept corrections by anyone who knows more about this.

Sorry, by "religious types" I didn't mean the followers of a religion. Rather, I meant the prophets, the visionaries, the people who hear voices, the people who see angels. You know, the founders of religions.

The following of a religion is a completely different matter. Some people join because they feel comforted, others because they want to fit in, others because they are folklore-motivated, etc. Who knows. At least, I don't.

Got it!

Better!

Thanks for responding

[Genady]

1 hour ago, joigus said:

AFAIK triggering of even serious form of schizophrenia only happens after environmental factors have made their appearance.

But I'm very far from being an expert here

I also am very far from being an expert, rather just a witness. In the case I've witnessed, specific environmental factor has made obvious a very serious form of schizophrenia, but then its signs could be traced back for years of misdiagnosis.

[joigus]

1 hour ago, Genady said:

I also am very far from being an expert, rather just a witness. In the case I've witnessed, specific environmental factor has made obvious a very serious form of schizophrenia, but then its signs could be traced back for years of misdiagnosis.

From what I know (and I know one case personally) it wasn't obvious during pre-pubescent stage and there were environmental factors that triggered it post-puberty. So what you say checks with my personal experience. That's why gene-based diagnosis is sure to become essential in the future.

[jnana]

can someone please define what a demon is

[exchemist]

57 minutes ago, jnana said:

can someone please define what a demon is

Suggest you first consult a dictionary and then come back with any specific points of clarification that you may have.

[iNow]

3 hours ago, jnana said:

can someone please define what a demon is

It’s the poo you make after eating ghost chilis 🌶️ 💩 😈

[Night FM]

On 3/29/2024 at 4:23 PM, jnana said:

can someone please define what a demon is

If I were to define it, I'd define it as a malevolent paranormal entity, or malevolent entity which can't be explained by contemporary understandings of the natural world.

There is a book called "Demonic Foes" by psychiatrist Richard Gallagher which argues in favor of the existence of demons from a secular perspective, and that causes of possession tend to be associated with involvement in the occult. I'm not arguing in favor of this view, per se, just putting it out there as food for thought.

On 3/19/2024 at 3:06 PM, joigus said:

Sorry, by "religious types" I didn't mean the followers of a religion. Rather, I meant the prophets, the visionaries, the people who hear voices, the people who see angels. You know, the founders of religions.

It would be debatable then, that this is an "illness" as opposed to a type of creative genius, and not limited specifically to "religions".

If this "gift" allowed them to successfully rally a multitude of people to a common cause, then I would see it as having social benefits, not just in religion, but in politics or other social movements. (If the "cause" itself was destructive, such as Hitler's charismatic ability to rally multitudes of people in support of fascism, then I would see that as the problem). As a historical example, I believe that Sitting Bull credited "visions" to his victory at Little Bighorn.

I'm a bit skeptical of reductionism of the success of historical religious and political leaders to a mental disorder. Likewise, my perception is that individuals who meet the criteria of having a mental disorder rarely have the success that such historical figures do. (For example, many of them were well-educated and socially functional, while a homeless man raving on a street corner isn't likely to garner a successful following, at least in my view).

On 3/15/2024 at 7:39 AM, exchemist said:

People did not understand mental illness in those days.

I do believe that some of the behaviors associated with demonic possession in the Bible are related to mental illness.

Edited August 28 by Night FM

[joigus]

4 hours ago, Night FM said:

It would be debatable then, that this is an "illness" as opposed to a type of creative genius, and not limited specifically to "religions".

My point on this thread was made. Anyway, I didn't say schyzotypism is limited to religions. I said the occurrence of religious visionaries through history are likely to be related to schyzotipism, and the fact that genes related to them might not have disappeared from the gene pool on account of those genes not being detrimental, but quite the contrary, is some special cases.

As to reductionism of ilness, don't oversimplify what an ilness probably is in many cases, and more in particular for mental ilness: A consequence of many factors, many of them environmental. It's not like a line of code in the software telling the hardware to do something. I did say that.